Voyager discussion

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#41

Like i said, powerful aliens or gods are just nouns.

Can Starfleet do what the Prophets do? Sure. Starfleet can go back in time and change things. Starfleet can use mind probing devices to enter peoples minds and make them see visions. Starfleet can wipe out an entire fleet if they have enough ships themselves. Same can be said about the founders, except that founders can change shapes and doesn’t age.

But there are things fundamentally different about the prophets that makes them closer to the concept of gods. Prophets are omniscient, omnipotent, pretty much omnipresence, and in a sense omnibenevolence (as opposed to the Pah-wraith). Pretty much the qualification of “godness”.

Whether one chooses to consider them as gods is pointless. It doesn’t matter what its called.

As for Kai Wynn, I think her evil comes from her political desires, and manipulating religion to achieve her political goal. I actually don’t think Kai Wynn is ignorant. She is just very good at ignoring facts that is not beneficial to her political purpose. It’s not the religion that caused Kai to be evil. Just like there are starfleet admirals that does evil things, but that doesn’t mean starfleet or admirals are inherently evil.

The Chakotay vision quest stories, besides being weak stories, doesn’t portray future Native-Americans who lived in the DMZ in a particularly bad light. Vision quests are induced with a rather non-traditional “high-tech” device. At most it is a form of meditation. Other than the vision quests, Chakotay doesn’t seem all that concerned with religious to me.

But then of course humans in Startrek always makes fun of the Vulcan meditation. And in reality, Vulcan meditation and everything around it has a sense of religion to it, though they don’t believe in god or gods, but they believed in achieving logic. Which is the core of the Buddism belief. Yet no one would say that portrayed Vulcans in a bad light.

#42

I am not makeing the “are they god’s or not” argument. I am just speaking to the fact that the theme of the TNG universe and the “civilised” cultures believe that religion is weak, primitive and stupid.

I am saying that according to Picard, ALL religions are stupid, weak, primitive and those that follow them are living " in the dark ages " . Picard states this as fact and NOONE disputes him. Since Picard is the voice of truth for the TNG world ( also given the theme of the episodes where he speaks ill of religion) . I was also saying that this is the oppinion of starfleet, the federation govt and 24th century civilised people. ( Bajor are portrayed as 3rd world )

Remeber… in entertainment, When Picard states something is fact… that’s the producers saying “this is true in our universe”. If Gul Dukat says that he wants it… then it’s bad. If Eric Cartman says he likes it… it’s wrong. If Stan and Kyle say it a tthe end of the episode… then it’s correct.

So it’s a huge double standard that religion is all bad and primitive… but Chakotay 's stupid visions are great… the Indians in the DMZ are great… just don’t have any western or traditional religion… cause that’s stupid.

Also almost ALL indians I know don’t believe in our ancestor’s nature stupid near-druidism religion. So obvioisly after 300 years of science, space exploration , Miramanee’s planet being discovered ( existance of the race that probably seed’s earth)… these Indians go back to living in a way that we don’t in 2008.

#43

I think the Indians don’t practice their traditional religion not because it is stupid, but because of European colonial influences. No one religion is more stupid than the other. The only thing stupid is fundamentalism. See South Park episodes Go God Go from season 10, when Cartman went to the future because he couldn’t wait for Wii. Only to meet 3 groups of fundamental scientist groups killing each other over science.

As for revival of traditional believes, clothing and languages, it happens all the time, and since Colonial days, I think it should happen on a larger scale.

#44

Well Colonialism is great. They wouldn’t have cars in Beijing if there was never colonialism. Wouldn’t have the city’s in America. I wouldn’t have a masters degree… I’d be hunting and gathering for my food. How many people were sacrificed to the gods in a pyramid in Mexico city last year… none, thanks Spanish Catholics! Old world belifs are great to perserve for historys sake… but not to actually believe in!

There is a big difference between respecting heritage, and going back to the dark ages of belivieng that the stars in the sky were created by the “spirit dog” running across the sky and the stars being crumbs that fell from his mouth. ( real American Indian belief). Or believing that “god” is literaly the planet earth and it has a soul and speaks aloud to you.

I am not trying to debate the validity of “real” religions of the world ( you know the ones that people will kill you cover) but there is a universal understanding that certain religions ( my ancestors native neo-pagan crap, Greek and Roman Mythoogy, Norse religion) and what not are simple stories told by simple people and that there is NOTHING valid about them past a good story for entertainment. Not all religions are equal.

Now I am not a christian, jew, Shinto, Buddhist or Muslim either… and I am not hell bent against them. I am not saying that becuase one religion seems more valid than the others that I endorse it. I am not trying to step on the toes of the faithful either. BUT believeing ( in modern times… especially in 300 years in the futre space times) that planetary boddies were formed from the mouth of a giant dog in the sky is about as stupid as believing in Thor, Jupiter, Zeus, Hera.

Once again… Picard states this as fact.

These Indians , despite science… go back to practiceing a joke of a religion. They KNOW the science behind creation and the anthropology behind their place on earth… and adapt, not only the customs… but the actual religion of my primitave ancestors! It’s no difference than the Xoines family down the street deciding today that they are going to switch from Orthadox to building a temple to Athena and praying for her guidence sat morning to help with the deer hunting. Or praising Dionysis before they do a shot of liquor at the bar.

#45

Actually, I think what the writers were going for is that even in the 24th century you can have a spiritual life. In fact you can use science and technology to enhance that aspect. Instead of using the peace pipe in his teepee, Chakotay used his vision quest device in his quarters. Interesting concept, probably not the best execution. IMO, Babylon 5 handled religion much better than Star Trek ever did. I always thot the Minbari were cool.

#46

quote by Frakkin Talos:Actually, I think what the writers were going for is that even in the 24th century you can have a spiritual life. In fact you can use science and technology to enhance that aspect. Instead of using the peace pipe in his teepee, Chakotay used his vision quest device in his quarters. Interesting concept, probably not the best execution. IMO, Babylon 5 handled religion much better than Star Trek ever did. I always thot the Minbari were cool.

Star Trek and spirituality were never a good mix from the beginning. I think that it was a result of Gene Roddenberry’s athieism. B5 and BSG did a much better job of integrating religion into their stories without it seeming belittleing or insulting to the viewer. The only Trek to come close was DS9’s Bajorans and prophets. Chakotay’s electronic vision quest was akin to watching someone finding enlightenment on a Nintendo Wii.

#47

Gene Roddenberry , J. Michael Straczynski (creator / writer of B5) and Ronald D Moore (creator / writer BSG) were/are all atheist.

I agree that Roddenberry’s beliefs (humanism) had a huge factor on the Star Trek universe and its view of religion. The producers of Deep Space Nine set out to break most of those molds and send Trek in areas it hadn’t tackled before. It was risky and IMO those risks paid off.

I think JMS put it best: [i]“You have to understand that the writer’s job is to be as honest as he humanly can in his characterizations and his storytelling. And, as I look at the long parade of human history, religion has not gone away in the past 4,000 years of recorded history, nor does it show any sign of going away any time soon.”

“If I have to be honest in looking at the world 250 years from now, I have to say that people will still believe at that time, and I must treat that with respect–the same way I’d deal with scientific concepts. Because, truthfully, science and religion are two sides of the same coin. The methodology is vastly different–one relies on faith while the other relies on scientific method–both are endeavors to understand who we are, how we got here, where we are going, and what we are here to do. I feel that one must approach both of those endeavors with equal respect.”[/i]

#48

Quote by Frakkintalos:
Gene Roddenberry , J. Michael Straczynski (creator / writer of B5) and Ronald D Moore (creator / writer BSG) were/are all atheist.

I agree that Roddenberry’s beliefs (humanism) had a huge factor on the Star Trek universe and its view of religion. The producers of Deep Space Nine set out to break most of those molds and send Trek in areas it hadn’t tackled before. It was risky and IMO those risks paid off.

Absolutely. Their personal beliefs gave J. Micheal Straczynski and RDM an amazing objectivity to working with religion in their writing. I think that if you have faith it can be dificult to distance youself or even contradict what you believe in, even for creating fiction because it defines your world view, your very thought process. Roddenbery still seemed to find it distastful though.

#49

I just got to say that I don’t understand the Kes hate. She is hot and has a great voice. I also thought Neelix and her were much more interesting than the Maquis.

#50

After the first couple episodes, the furniture was more interesting than the Maquis…

#51

#52

After the first episode ( and seska…opps i forgot) there was a Maquis storyline?

#53

absolutely.

and that’s why I don’t think the writers in anyway went against the tradition of Star Trek when they wrote about Chakotay and his vision quests.

Yes, most of Federation now believes that religion is an outdated concept. But these are groups of people that willingly went to the fringe of Federation. Perhaps in hopes of escaping judgment of being barbaric and backwards just because they have a spiritual life. It’s too bad those stories weren’t written better, but there isn’t anything wrong with the concept.

And on roosterpfunk69’s post, I don’t find “God is the earth and he talks to us” part of Indian religion any more ridiculous than “god has an only son who is also god but the same god not a different god, and oh yeah, so are the holy spirits” part.

Last point on what roosterpfunk69 said on colonialism. Social interaction can propel advancement in society without destroying native languages or cultures, but instead help the language and culture naturally evolve. Colonialism and the destruction of the belief system and language isn’t a must for the advancements of the Americas or any other parts of the world. Heck, that’s what the Prime Directive is about.

#54

Well this is kinda off topic… but I’ll throw my two cents in, being the decendant of the colonized…

I am the poster child for the positive aspects of colonisation.

Well talking about what the brits and us did in the past is pointless cause what’s what done is done. The pros of the past outweigh the cons. Hence poor indians that pratice their cultre live on reservations, my ancestors spoke english, owned masive farms in tennessee, three generations of college graduates and I am sitting in an aircondioned home that was never on wheels. Sure some people get screwed in coloialsim… but in the end, it’s best.

PLUS we don’t have to worry too much about colonialism… cuase every time we try to do it… our own citizens stab us in the back and cry about it. You can’t perfect the perfect omlette with out breaking many many many eggs in practice.

As a general rule the destruction of a language and culture from colonialism really only applies to the natives that participate in doing bussiness with the conquorer and choose join the culture of the conquorer. There are a few occasions in history where native language is outlawed… but they are few and far between. Usualy it’'s people like my ancestors who learn that if they want horses and iron they have to speak english and wear regular cloths.

The moores brought eating utinciles to Spain!

And ALL STRONG CULTURES retain their language… the weak get conqured or decide that haveing a unique culture isn’t worth the effort.

Example: Vietnam, those guys whipped Frog ass, my dad’s ass, and china’s ass all in about 30 years and speak their own language.

Hong Kong was dominated by brits… as was shangihi… chinese language never went away. Didn’t in India, egypt, or anywhere with a culture above the stone age.

Spain was conquored by the Moores … the sdon’t speak Arabic.

The chinese had been imigrateing to indochina for 300 years and how did it turn out? The ethnic chinese were relegated to a “merchant class” and killed in mass from 1950-1979.

Cultures take over other cultures… and it’s great. For every local that hates what the british did 200 years ago… there are 50 that like driving fords and watching Star Trek.

My ancestors were eating dogs, and building simple wooden structures, and selling their daughters to creek indians to save their village when Romans were building acuaducts on an island that they conqured 500 miles away from their home. You know what my ancestors were doing when the british came to the southeseast US: eating dogs, and building simple wooden structures, and selling their daughters to creek indians to save their village. So sure, many NA Indians lost some real estate… but in 2009 we all have cars! We can get penicilin. We don’t fear the sun or moon. From where we were before the westerners came…assumeing we advanced … we would be currrently building bronze age legions or barbarian hordes. ( I am saying we would be where Rome and europe were about 35 ad. based where out tech was in comparison to the fact that we stayed the same for at least 500 years and the point of discovery we were equal to the romans were in 700bc. )

Sure it sucked for sitting bull… but it’s great for america today. Plus , let’s face it… it doesn’t work haveing another country INSIDE of your country… it’s just not what is done. We are conqurerors there’s nothing wrong with it… we only bitch about the conquorors when they aren’t on our side.

#55

The Chinese merchants/working class were introduced en-mass by the Europeans to South East Asia during the colonial periods. And they were killed in masses there since the 17th century in the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia, not by locals, but by the colonials. The Austronesians in those places simply replaced the colonials and adopted the colonial’s view towards the local Chinese population. It’s not an example for “strong cultures can over come conquerors”.

Disliking the colonial method and result is not mutually exclusive to like driving fords and watching Star Trek. Just like the Indians in the DMZ reviving spirituality is not mutually exclusive with belief in science and use of technology.

Anyway, without going too far off topic, it is in the conquerors long term interest to keep the cultural uniqueness of the local population. It is a great tourism money maker.

#56

Just watched the episode “Tatoo.” I found it a very touching episode and I liked the way it dealt with Chakotay’s spiritual development.

Agreed.

This is perhaps not the place to get into an argument about the pro/cons of colonialism, but difference and diversity is our (humanity’s) greatest strength, and colonial endeavors tend to either flatten those differences, or set them up in a hierarchy that only benefits a select few. Not cool. From what I’ve seen of post-TOS Trek (for all I know, Enterprise is totally different on this), the Federation is all about respecting and celebrating the differences. [I exclude TOS due to some of the really painful go AMERICA episodes… no wonder Star Wars is more popular in Latin America…)

#57

there are very personally moments in Voyager, and it creates the family feeling. That is probably the best attribute of Voyager. It’s what made me come back and watch week after week.

I know every Trek show says its crew is like a family. But TOS has the big 3 family, more like brothers, the rest no so much. TNG is more like a very tight work place feeling. I don’t get the feeling of family between Picard and Number 1… In DS9 there are actual families, and the scope of the show is very big to have the feeling of everyone on the station is a family.

Only Voyager at one point created that we are all family feeling. Yeah it sucks that it wasn’t the we Maquis hate you Uniform types and will stab you in the back, and the you Maquis knows nothing about loyalty or cooperation and can only scrub conduits kind of show. It would have been more exciting and realistic.

But I didn’t mind the family thing… It was a feel good show with the wrong backdrop, or perhaps the backdrop forced the crew to be closer to each other because all they had was each other. Either way, when it was a feel good show done right, I have no complaints with Voyager…

#58

I am all about mixing of cultures. … I am the best example. My family were Indians that had the good sense to speak English and trade with the whites. ( the whites… like it’s a dirty word. I surely don’t mean it that way) We hadn’t develpoped working with Iron! (WTF!) some 1696 years behind europe and asia! And officialy we nevr have. Ever heard of an indian mine… or blacksmith! Or an Indian invented machine… ( invented by an indian that took NO knowledge or education from "white " society!) Of couarse you haven’t. We benifited from colonialism. ( well those that didn’t get wiped out by disease or didn’t play ball)

Now… we all have good jobs, drive cars and are part of the mainstream american culture.

Those that didn’t… well trail of tears mean anything to you?

Sure I can’t speak Creek or Cherokee… but who cares. How many americans of 6+ generations still speak Dutch, German, or Polish.

PLUS some cultures colonise better than others. The British and the US are far better at it than the Spanish, French and Belgians. The latter three being responsible for the majority of unstable counries on the planet!

I was stationed in Siera Leon ( Us 5th special forces group 1999) helping africans fight their civil war. I was friends with those men and women and every one of them would tell you that they would rather be here dealing with the predjudices and whatever that the african american expierience is… cause at least we don’t have legal rape gangs roaming atlanta the way they do in Bo. And that’s not our fault… only the presence of guns is our fault… cuase this has been happening there almost non-stop for 400 plus years.

You know when it wasn’t going on at this level. Only once… the 100 years of british and french direct colonial rule!

Sometimes people… like in Africa, or my ancestors… or arpegio’s in the Philipenes were primitive backwater people… and they need the hand of a modern country to help them along. Sometimes that happens thru colonialism, conquoring or sometimes thru USA for Africa or Live Aid or the Christian childrens fund or Sally Struthers.

Sure … i can complain that white man took the land… but then i watch cable tv, and get on a plane tommorow to fly to Puerto Rico!

But that’s all from me on that and I’ll give you guys the last word.

#59

Taking one culture and put it above others is not called mixing cultures. The trail of tears is called that not just because they were forced to move, which is a wrong decision by the US in the first place, but also because of the out break of disease.

The disease did not take place because these Indians were ignorant. The Americas and much of Pacific had not been in contact with Eurasia. Therefore they were more vulnerable to smallpox than their Eurasian counter part, whose population has been in contact with smallpox for the past 3,000 years. In the Pacific, smallpox introduced by Europeans killed over 50% of Austronesian population.

One can only prevent smallpox with a vaccine. Otherwise it is pretty much untreatable and left up to the immune system to determine the survival. Even then there’s have a good chance to be blind. The US did not start to require the vaccination to children until 1843, which i doubt the mercy extended to the Indians. The trail of tears happened from 1831~1838.

So if your ancestors didn’t suffer the same fate from smallpox, they were lucky, not because they are smart to speak English.

The rest of the Americans went there because they choose to. If they forget their native language, it’s a shame and lost of skill set for the US, but it is their choice. The Native Americans however did not have that choice.

To say one culture is inferior and deserves to die for what ever reason, be it believing in the wrong god, inferior human species, or too backwards, is the basis of fundamentalism.

#60

So I just finished up Voyager season 2.

Much better than season 1 (which was fine), Janeway’s still fabulous. She reminds me of so many women I know in so many different ways, and who I’ve never seen characters like on television before. There were quite a few episodes (particularly the crap with Seska and the Kazon-Nistrim) that brought issues of gender to the forefront, which I thought were very well done.

As I mentioned upthread, I really enjoy Chakotay’s development this season, too, with more backstory on his relationship with his father.

Doctor still = awesome. So’s Tuvok, who is one of my favorite characters. I guess I just love Vulcans.

I’m still curious about the Vidiians, what with Denara being awesome but all the other Vidiians we meet not being nice at all.

Besides the obvious getting home arc, I don’t really get the grand sweeping storyline here, though, like in DS9 (though to be fair, I don’t know if it’s supposed to have one). Sure, there’s the ongoing antagonism with the Kazon and with the Vidiians, but Voyager so far reminds me much more of the early TNG seasons.

I’m boldly going… to Basics, Part II. Yay for season 3 :slight_smile: