With a desire to better understand Deep Space Nine, Solai started a thread for DS9 discussion. I have really enjoyed reading it and figured I’d start a thread for each of the series. So have at 'em!
Who doesn’t hate Kes? Can’t say I gushed over Voyager but it had its moments. Most of them included the Doctor. Besides the fact of being ultimate eye candy I really enjoyed Jeri Ryan’s portrayal of Seven. She showed a great range of emotion.
Share your thots about Voyager.
i actualy think that the Voyager pilot was better than most of the voyager shows. ( I know that isn’t saying much to some people) It held promise to me, i didn’t know it was going to suck. the Maqui thing was real cool ( too bad they forgot about it). I liked Paris as a fringe character ( too bad he straightened up and became a “Picardian”) , I liked Chacoty ( too bad he realy isn’t in the last three seasons). When I look back at it, I don’t think of the pilot as bad. I HATED it in 95. I think the quality was good, it was just disapointing compared with what I wanted it to be.
Ron Moore explained in an interview why he thought that voyager was bad. He explained how they set the show up to basicly be “galactica”. Low tech… or dwindling tech. Dirty ship, maquis/federation friction… most of this was forgoten a few episodes in. It was a let down. I thought that the Kazon were terrible. Nelix was annoying… and yes, I hated Kes. Hell I hated Janeway at first. I needed to grow up to appreciate Janeway. She was too Picardian for me. I am more of a Captain Kirk/Sisko kinda guy. ( maybe my ranking of her and Picard as lower than Kirk and Sisko is a testosterone thing. Maybe as a 6ft 3 athlete and an Army guy I only identify “manly men” as strong leaders- yes I know Shatner is a midget… but I didn’t know it back then )
I hated the show for three years ( althou I watched it weekly because it was Trek). I read in StarLog during season 1 that the crew would eventualy find the Borg, so I held on and I waited.
When they did, got rid of Kes, and broght in 7, I thought that the show was at least as good as the a lot of TNG. Many of the episodes were really really good ( but the good ones were almost always 7of9 episodes). I liked the Herogin A LOT. When they play on spike… I don’t start back to watching them until they get 7.
I don’t feel they really wrote the show as an ensamble until Jerry Ryan Joined the show either. I think that everyone got better about that time.
back in the day on Star Trek official forum, there was a long drawn out argument over Kes FOR YEARS. There was someone who really LOVED Kes and Jennifer Lien, and every thread turned into a Kes haters v.s. Kes lover debate, since Kes haters loved to provoke the guy… it was horrible… so don’t let him see this…
My least favorite person was actually Seven of Nine. The character was great and all, but I didn’t enjoy most of the Borg episodes… except for the one where Seven caused 3 other drones who wanted to leave the collective for ever linked together, and maybe some of the Borg children episodes.
I started watching Voyager in season 3. Voyager was best in Season 3 to 5 in my opinion.
In season 1 and 2 of Voyager they actually tried a more arch like approach. With Seska and the Kazon keep coming back to haunt the crew. It was a great idea, and Seska was a cool villain, even after she died she was still a great nemesis of the Voyager crew, but the Kazon SUCKED… If the did a better job on the Kazon, maybe Voyager would have been completely different.
Season 6 and 7 became EMH and Seven of 9 show. And they rehashed a lot of ideas that worked in previous seasons.
I still love it tho… it was the first Trek series i tried to follow after TNG, and with out Voyager and all the Marquis stuff, I wouldn’t have gone and watched DS9, which was eye opening.
I really wanted them to do more animosity between the Marquis and Starfleet crews. The episodes with Seska were great.
Wouldn’t it have so mucjh better if the cardasian seska had stayed there. What if we knew she was a spoon head, but they didn’t… all Baltar style. and eventualy she would be found out and had to be accepted… and was maybe the “worf” of the show. Man, that would have been cool… they never would have done that.
I guess. But I was thinking more of a mutiny and then a trial. Would Janeway really have authority? Could Chakotay stage a coup? In reality, they were millions of miles from the Federation and the whole reason for the conflict between the Federation and the Marquis. So they really needed each other but I felt that they figured that out too quickly, in the first episode no less.
The only thing I can really say about Voyager was, I had so much hope for it. Essentially, I got bored & stopped watching.
I don’t think you were alone.
I didn’t hate Kes. She was okay. I think I watched every episode of Voyager, but I always found it kind of meh.
However, I loved love LOVED Suder. Suder is my all-time favorite Star Trek character, so I have to thank Voyager for that.
Yeah, this pretty much sums the only thing of value I can share about Voyager. After being burned from DS9 I started watching this and honestly can’t tell you a thing about it. I watched the pilot…maybe an episode or two and just couldn’t muster any reason to go watch it.
I think if this were on today I would treat Voyager like Fringe…enjoyable enough when absolutely nothing else is on and my DVR has run dry.
…oh, should I mention that I went and checked…I think I remember having a crush on Kes. 
Oh. My. God. You didn’t, did you?
I’m just giving you a hard time. I’m pretty sure Audra has outed me about this on the podcast, but I’m a total Kes-hater.
(I should probably preface this, BTW, by saying that virtually every time I’ve admitted to my GWC friends that I’m a “hater” in a given area, they’ve cured me of it. I suspect this may be no different. Sometimes it just takes a different perspective to find the fun in something.)
I think my Kes-hating is two-fold:
First, she’s so smug. Everyone’s freaking out because either a) she’s brought something down on them or b) she’s absurdly calm while everything’s going to s—, or c) she turned out to be a God and is pissed off and might send them all straight to hell (or nothingness or whatever the humanistic-Trek equivalent to hell is). You know what I mean.
Second – and I’m embarrassed to admit this – she’s one of the few characters I didn’t miss when she left the show. I never really enjoyed the way she interacted with the other characters, and I felt like things strengthened after she left.
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That said, I’ve got to disagree with you, Solai, on Voyager being just DVR filler. Sure, they had some problems getting started – much in the way TOS and TNG did. Just like TNG, they had a hard time settling on a quality enemy. Remember how the Ferrengi were going to be the force of evil in TNG? (No, really.) I pretty much look at the Kazon as the same sort of flub. Same with the Vidians – though the whole organ-stealing thing was kinda cool, if not impossible to really show on-screen. But once the writers (and, of course, the crew of Voyager) found Species 8472 – and ultimately the Borg – things kicked into overdrive.
I did sort of enjoy the push-pull of the desire to return home vs. moral and ethical standards, and that provided for quite a few fun episodes. It also helped to deepen the characters as we saw them form bonds of friendship (and marriage) during the course of dealing with the situation.
Seven of Nine’s appearance added a whole new layer of excitement to the show. (And no, not just because she’s incredibly attractive and wears a form-fitting onesie. At least not entirely because she’s incredibly attractive and wears a form-fitting onesie.) Kidding aside, she offers a really interesting look into what it means to be Borg – and therefore what it means to be human. Her part in the Unimatrix Zero story and the final episodes arc is amazing.
My favorite Janeway moment is, of course, from the season two episode “Deadlock.” In summary, Voyager is split into two complete Voyagers, and they experience a conflict with Vidians differently. As things begin to fall apart for one Voyager, the Janeway commanding on that side of the mirror triggers a self-destruct, killing herself and the remainder of her crew to save the “better” version of Voyager (and to hopefully give the crew there a better life). The best moment is when the rampaging Vidians burst onto the bridge to find Janeway (and others) calmly sitting on the bridge. Janeway’s line:
“Hello. I’m Captain Kathryn Janeway. Welcome to the bridge.” (Boom)
One final thot: I didn’t really see Voyager (or DS9, though I’ll confine that discussion to the appropriate thread) until after they’d aired, which means I saw them on DVD, on my own schedule, and in correct episode order with no major interrruptions. I know I didn’t really appreciate DS9 until I saw it this way, and while Voyager wasn’t as linear-story dependent as DS9, I still think it added to the experience.
Of the many things that Star Trek taught me while growing up, this was a big one. Love your enemy. Star Trek would take an enemy, be it Klingon, Romulan, Borg, whatever and show their side. It wasn’t always this is the good guy and this is the bad guy. The show helped you understand another’s point of view.
From the very first episode that aired entitled “The Man Trap” we are given a monster-of-the-week. But we get into the mind of the monster, it isn’t just evil. Dr. Robert Crater has cared for it, even though it killed his wife. McCoy shows compassion for it. They try to save it. In the end, Kirk phasers it but well you know its what he does. What I’m trying to say is several episodes taught this lesson, “Balance of Terror”, “The Devil in the Dark” (I could go on) TNG continued this theme with putting a Klingon on the bridge as did DS9 with the episodes like “Duet” and the character of Odo. As you mentioned Chuck, Voyager did this with the character of Seven.
Star Trek taught me charity and understanding. This is one of the many reasons I love Trek.
I was starting to think that I was some sort of freak in loving Voyager. Feeling a bit better now, thanks Chuck.
I think of Voyager as split roughly into two phases marked by Janeway’s hair. The first “long hair” phase had some awkward moments and rough edges which appeared to be ironed out in the later “short hair” phase. While I enjoyed the show, I preferred the short hair phase.
The first time around, I liked Kes’ character for her psychic abilities. I was into that sort of thing at the time. I wasn’t fond of “god Kes” though (hated “god Wes” too, for that matter). My DH HATED her. I just bought the DVD’s and in the second watching she’s MEH. (DH still HATES her).
I liked 7 of 9, though her boobs got in the way of Janeways character growth on occasion, which irked. In fact, her boobs got in the way of a lot of the characters growth. Bit of a sun block there. If 7 of 9 wasn’t such a great character, I would have hated her. (Oh, and DH LOVED her. Hmmm.)
Voyager was clean, like TNG. Nothing very gritty here. Sometimes that’s just what I want.
My wished that some of the Marquis would refuse to work. So instead of a full military vessel, it would have some “civilians” and not even Star Fleet civilians on board.
The mutiny and trial would have been interesting.
The whole Star Fleet Marquis thing just resolved too quickly. And I wished they had episodes where Janeway made deals with Seska and the Marquis crew refused to cooperate with a Cardassian.
They could have done so much more with their back ground story…
Totally… borg boobs are evil…
the only thing about the Maquis not working… their commander put them to work. So they aren’t without accountbility.What I want to know is this.
I understand Chakotay is a criminal. He is a starfleet officer turned terrorist. But what about the colonists who lived in cardasian occupied space… starfleet wouldn’t have any jurisdiction over them. something to think about.
I agree with Chuck; Seven of Nine’s arrival on the show really brought life back into it. The fact that it coincided roughly with Kes’ departure makes Kes look a little lamer than she was, I think. As far as Seven’s body, I agree that Jeri Ryan is such a beautiful woman that is was distracting at times, and I don’t think it was exactly necessary to stick her in the catsuit. BUT, Seven was a really cool character and brought a lot to the show, especially with her no-nonsense attitude, her back story about her scientist parents, and the Unimatrix Zero arc. One of my favorite Seven moments of all time: (to Harry Kim): “Take off your clothes.” (Harry stumbles backward and falls) “Don’t worry. I will not hurt you.”
Another of my favorite storylines with Seven was when she sort of took in the Borg kids that were abandoned, and that cool guy Echeb with the crappy parents (Mark Shepard played his dad!!).
I never hated Kes, but it always seemed to me that they (the writers) didn’t quite know what to do with her. She started out as maybe-the-attractive-young-woman but they kind of shuffled her into a more childlike role with that ambiguous relationship with Neelix. I admit, I used to HATE Neelix back when Voyager originally aired. Now, I like him, but I was relieved when he and Kes separated because their relationship was so stagnant and weird. I think Kes was holding him back! :eek:
My biggest problem was with Chakotay, because I felt they lost a lot of potential with that character. The vision quest episodes always elicit a groan from Chuck and me; you know them by the pan flutes at the beginning. And the fake robo-peyote felt like too much of a cop-out. It was too bad, because Chakotay is a handsome guy, with a lot of ability to interact with Janeway in interesting and complex ways. I have to admit it was a bit of a bummer, too, that they had two good Latino actors (Robert Beltram and Roxanna Dawson) and took away their Latino-ness. Chakotay becomes an American Indian of some sort, and Torres, while keeping a Hispanic-sounding name, is half human, half Klingon, with no real trace of specific human ethnicity. (Do Klingons have ethnic groups? It seems as though they must, though I’ve never seen them.)
Another problem, I think, was that you always get the feeling that the show chickens out when they could really make a statement or have some really strong feelings. Janeway gives up a number of opportunities to get the crew home in order to follow her moral values and her core training as a captain. But the reaction to her decisions is always swept under the rug, as are any serious threats of loss or character unhappiness.
Ultimately, I did like Voyager, and some episodes really stuck with me, like the “Beowulf” episode where the Doctor is given a name by his lover, the Tom-and-Harry episodes in the holodeck playing cheesy science fiction stories, the episode where they find Amelia Earheart, the one where they re-enact a WWII scenario, the one where Chakotay and Janeway live on a planet alone for a number of weeks and he builds her a bathtub, and the Fair Haven episodes.
And there were some great Janeway moments, too, like the one Chuck mentioned. A few seasons in, the show really got good, especially with Species 8472 (AWEsome), the Borg, and Seven of Nine.
The show could be cheesy, and it was flawed, but sometimes it was just what I wanted, and there’s a lot to be said for that.
Chakotay and the Maquis could have been the greatest thing that happened to Voyager, but they really dropped the ball there. They were never willing to show a real conflict between the Maquis and the SF people. Whenever they do, it was some sort of reset button or holo creation.
The episode with Seska reprogrammed Tuvox’s security trainning program was just brilliant. Tuvox wnated to prevent Maquis uprising, and Seska wanted to show him what real Maquis would have done. However, It was a holo-deck gone wild story and nothing lasting ever came out of those.
Personally I think Voyager was already on its track by the second half of season 3, they really didn’t need to add Seven of Nine. Not that I dislike her character, but I really didn’t enjoy many of the Borg stories. Nor did I enjoy much of the season 6 and 7 when it turned into Seven and Doctor show.
By the end of season 3, the Year of Hell arc was already in planning. But because the need to create an introduction for the new character, they shrunk that arc into a 2 episode reset button.
To me, Seven of Nine is interesting, but I’d rather have Voyager taken the direction to have an arc on Year of Hell. Had Voyager spent more time in the first 2 seasons having the Maquis building up anemosity towards Janeway turning down opportunities to go home. And then from season 4 onwards dive into the year of hell mini arc, Voyager could have been great.
They still could have introduced the borg and Species 8472 with or without Seven of Nine after the Year of Hell arc. I loved 8472 stories, especially Season 5’s “In the Flesh”. And they can push back the Seven of Nine centric stories, and have more material in season 6 and 7, instead of rehashing and recycling stories that fans liked.
In the end, I loved Voyager for the characters and what it could have been. But I was really upset with the guys in charge… Especially after all these years of not breaking rules just to get home, the producers thought it was a good idea in the finale, to have the method of Voyager returning home to be a genecidal, temoral rewriting orgy. B&B really cheapened the show.
I watched Voyager when it first aired. And loyally watched all 7 seasons, but that was mostly because it was Trek and I love Trek.
So, although, I liked Kes and was sorry to see her go, and I liked Janeway, Tom Paris, Harry, Seven of Nine, all the characters, I never “loved” them, as I did Kirk, Spock, Bones, Picard, Riker, Worf, Sisko, Kira, Jadzia, Quark, and more.
I remember at times watching Voyager with friends and most spent the time ragging on Kes or Janeway or Chakotay - it was most annoying. I was always willing to give Voyager a chance, up to the end. But when I look back on it, I have never had the urge to re-watch it, as I have Kirk’s Star Trek, and Next Gen, and DS9.
Enterprise is the only Trek where my loyalty faltered. Stayed with it for 2 seasons, then lost interest. This I almost can’t believe, given my enthusiam for Trek and scifi in general. Oh well.
Well said frakkintalos.
Sounds like Wesley.