Putting myself in RDM’s shoes, I feel he would have been wary of repeating his own story arcs from Voyager to BSG. There’ s very strong temptation, almost unconcious even, to write stories and then figure out later that these beats have already been done in Voyager.
RDM was only involved in Voyager briefly after DS9 ended. He was cast out because they didn’t like his style. Had RDM been at the helm of Voyager since the star, it would have been a very different show.
At Talos’s suggestion, posting some thots…
I just started watching Voyager, and so far have only seen the pilot… but I’m quite fond of Janeway. Smart, quick, decisive. I’m looking forward to what is going to happen with the integration of the Voyager crew and the Maqui crew… though from what I’ve seen of the next episode so far, it looks like most of it will be quickly sorted out to get back to the point of all Trek… seeking out new life and new civilizations, and boldly going where no one has gone before.
Yeah. I have to say that was a huge gripe for me. Why would everyone just act like one big happy family? Ugh! You’ve got some great conflict there but pfft
I don’t want to spoil it but it does kinda crop up later.
I was a big Voyager fan, but looking back on it now I can see the the validity of the criticisms. I think the biggest complaint I would have now is that the crew wasn’t given an opportunity to become a family, like on TOS. That, and a great deal of humorless and flat line delivery, in the first few seasons especially. According to Garret Wang (Ensign Kim) this should be laid at the feet of Brannon Braga who apparently told the crew to downplay every scene so that the monster of the week could take the spotlight. Anyone interested in hearing his comments on Voyager should check out his interview on the GeeksOn podcast.
Despite all that, I feel Voyager had a lot going for it. It had a phenomenal captain. I certainly couldn’t be friends with her, but she was protective of her crew, very smart, quick to pick up a phaser and had enough integrity for 2 people. We got the chance to explore a whole new chunk of the universe with all new allies and villains, something I definitely missed from TOS. And most importantly of all, we got a whole lot of Robert Picardo, the Doc was the best thing on the dang show. 
I figured I’d transplant this post I from the cool craap thread over to this thread where it should be. (Response to Casilda saying she’s starting to watching ST:VOY)
RDM’s many interviews about Voyager he sums the shows failure ( his oppinion) up as this…
paraphrased…
The show is supposed to be a about the maquis crew and Janeways crew trying to get home. They are suppoded to have a ship that is dirty, and a crew that barely get’s along. There are suppsed to have very few photon torps left… it was supposed to be darker in every treatment that was passed around Trek offices and promoted at cons and press junkets.
They forgot all about that stuff … and made a clean happy trek show! He has said several times… The minute the maquis crew put on star fleet uniforms the edge was gone.
I still like Voyager anyway. But, I am not a moron… I do think it’s the weakest of the series! ( takeing period into account TOS haters!). As far as trek goes…most of it’s episodes are mediocre or bad trek. But, Bad trek is still better than good Harry Potter, Buffy 90210, or BAB5 any Centon!
bad trek is kinda like piss-poor sex with a pretty girl… it’s not what you wanted, but you still got laid!
The show suffered a lot from B&B’s directions. From the direction of the show, to requiring actors not to be too emotional. Yeah, Starfleet people hold themselves together most of the time, but these people are like 70 years away from home.
But when it had good writing, it was still great Trek show. Those well written episodes had all the elements that make the TOS or TNG great.
Though I think the writing went down hill after Season 6…
Having finished season 1 (and just got the first discs from season 2 from the library), I have a few bullet-worthy thots:
[ul][li]Janeway’s a great character. I can see how certain segments of Trekdom wouldn’t be OK with her, but well, I think they’re wrong.[/li][li]Didn’t see the Seska-as-Cardassian bit coming, though Seska herself as a character was always a bit… suspicious.[/li][li]The Doctor is one of my favorite characters! Especially after the Beowulf-holodeck episode. I groaned when that ep started, thinking, oh no not another holodeck goes wrong episode. But I was wrong about it. I’m glad he didn’t stay with the name Schweitzer, though.[/li][li]Kes and Neelix? Huh?[/li][li]I definitely keep seeing analogues to the other series I’ve seen, particularly DS9, in terms of storylines (ex. the Neelix-Dr. Jatrel conflict being similar to the conflict in Duet, though Duet’s a masterpiece, perhaps the best Trek episode ever. Not a fair comparison…)[/li][li]I go back and forth about Chakotay and the portrayal of Native Americans[/ul][/li]
Of course I have more to say (when don’t I? ;)) but I’ll wait to see how I feel about season 2…
Your use of colorful language has increased of late. (to paraphrase that is)
were are in agreement about a bunch of stuff.
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As for Janeway. Love the character. BUT I can’t stand the actress’s portrayal of her most of the time. It’s her voice. I It’s really jsut the sound of her voice. It’s someitimes raspy , sometimes high pitched, sometimes deep. It irks me. She is much better in novels than on screen.
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Loved the seska storyline ( except that it invloves the Kazon, who suck) in that I love a spoonhead spy in the maquis concept. I hate the very NON cardasian thing that she is doing by joining the Kazon. A cardi would play along for the next 7 years and if she got caught as a Cardi… Janeway would do the starfleet thing and accept her… then she could just betray them once they got back to the alpha quadrant! ( the way they ended it was lame!)
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I liked the Dr too. But it feels in the later season that he is practicaly Data ( aka the other main star of the show. It becomes the Janeway, 7, DR show!)
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kes and neelix…horrible characters, relationship, and acting! But now that I am old… Kes is hot. I didn’t think so when I was 21.
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I do feel that by the time Voyager came out it was like Law and order "ripped from the headlines… or an old TNG or ds9 script!)
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The Native American thing was weird to me in trek. The episode that involves Chakotay’s home planet ( a TNG episode) just seemed crazy. The Indians were still speaking in a “western movie” accent, wearing beads and braids ( most modern American Indians don’t even do that unless it’s at a tribal festival) and they were portrayed as still being pagans. Picard was totaly all about respecting them and not thinking them to be idiots, even thou he had stated in previous epiosdes that it was accepted by “all modern cultures” that religion was stupid. These were federation citizens! Based on his charaterization in prior episodes he ( even if he doesn’t state it) believes that these are backwards hillwamps! Here is my basis for that:
HE is the very character that made the case in an eralier episode that religions were primitive, and equated ( Who watches the watchers) the mintaken’s haveing a religion was “dooming them to a life of ignorance and fear”
Picard is believed to be a god by the local populace on Mintaka who are living on a low technological level. Picard strives to obey the Prime Directive, but seeing that the damage has already been done, he reveals himself as what he is – not a god, but a mortal whose technology makes him appear powerful. Picard rejects any kind of religion as backward and compares it to superstition. He tries hard to convince the natives of exactly that (TNG: “Who Watches the Watchers?”).
When the planet Ventax is about to be taken over by the alleged devil-like Ardra, Picard poses as some kind of god to demonstrate that their “devil” Ardra is not supernatural either: Once again Picard states that people should not abide by the power of religions and myths (TNG: “Devil’s Due”).
So I object to native americans being portryed as less advanced than my relatives were in 1995. ( Tribe members - I consider myself white. I am not ashamed to be indian, but I have a hard time saying that I am when I live in , and was raised “white America”. But my grandma is a tribal member of the eastern band of cherokee’s- thou you wouldn’t know it to meet her. ( I mean if you are expecting an old indian grandma with a wigwam and dark long hair and high cheekbones like a movie) We don’t believe in the spirit dog in the sky or any of that 16th century BS. She was a university level social studies teacher .
So the Chakotay thing is more ridiculous because it builds on that crappy TNG episode. picard established that religions ( at least human ones) were stupid and all humans had grown past that… then here’s Chakotay, dumbing it down.
I am not saying that I agree with picard’s stance. Not turning this into a politics thread. I am just saying he more than made the case that his opinion is the accepted and expected belief in modern Federation society… then here is the Indian episodes and Chakotay to make it look like we go back to the TEE pEE in 300 years!
Made this for Chuck the other day…
That poster is great!!!
with those response to season 1, I think you will have no problem enjoying the next 5. All the great elements only gets better, that is for the next 5 seasons…
that would have been pretty cool. I think they went through the Seska stories too fast as well. She is one great villain. If they made a few twists and turns with her, sort of like what they did with Dukat, now that would have been a master piece.
I am personally an atheist. But I don’t see science and religion is an either or situation. As long as it isn’t fundamentalism, religion can coexist with Science very well.
heck, most of the western astronomy, were pioneered by religious figures. Copernicus was a clergy, that didn’t stopped him and his colleagues to make scientific discoveries. And those who tried to stop Copernicus or Galileo were fundamentalists who believes who ever disagrees with them should die. If all that religion requires is the belief that there is a higher power, science and religion can co-exist without a problem.
Just because they believe when no one else does doesn’t make them stupid. See Bajorans and Prophets for example.
besides, just because there are people like Picard, doesn’t mean everyone in the Federation thinks like him. Most people in the Federation have no problem eating replicated food, but there are always groups of people who wants to live off the earth. Just because their belief isn’t mainstream, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Also, even if beliefs are abandoned at one point, it can always be revived. Take the Native Americans now none-natives on an other planet for example, if they all chose to leave Earth to come to a planet, they must had a strong conviction about reviving the old culture. Otherwise why would have bother to travel to some back washed planet in the first place. If they were happy with the way things are on Earth, they never needed to move.
If there are things like the Prophets who lives outside of linear space time and can wipe out an entire fleet of warships at their will in the Trek universe (not to mention Q), what’s wrong with others believing in god or gods? In the end, it’s just a noun describing a higher power. One can call it Q, Prophets, Wormhole Aliens, God, Gods, Roses or Manure for that matter, doesn’t change the fact that it is a higher power.
In Chakotay’s case, regardless of whether there truly are totem spirits, the meditation obviously are of some use. I don’t think Chakotay is a weak or bad character just because he is a future man who still believed in religion. I think his character sucked because the writers came up with some pretty sucky stories for him and his religion.
I think this whole thing smacks of unimaginative writing. They took an uninformed idea of Native Americans and transplanted them to the future. They should have taken some time to explore how ancient tradition would be reflected and transformed in a group of people so far removed in space, time and ideas shaped by interstellar travel. I feel this would have been great episode fodder, as Chakotay uses his newly found tribal tradition to adapt to being trapped on a starship in the delta quadrant. Instead they made it hokey. :mad: Same kind of thinking that derailed the Maqui/Federation conflict so they could get back to ‘monster of the week’ storytelling. I think I’m gonna file this under “Missed Opportunity.”
This whole discussion has me thinking about the direction they will take in any new TV Trek. Seems inevitable we will get some considering the success of the movie.
I always thought that was a riff on the episode from TOS “The Paradise Syndrome.” I’m not sure if that was the writers’ intent, however.
There has been talk of of that. A while back on startrek.com I remember some talk about the idea of a new Star Trek series based in the new movie Star Trek universe, but a different star ship and different characters. The hope (according to what I read) was to recapture the passion and energy of ST: TOS.
Ironically we just Frak partied that episode this week.
Well if you watch DS9… it is the standard federation ( civilized) belief that the Prophets are “worm hole Aliens”. There is an acceptance of the Bajoran religion in that… they have to recognize that it it exists, out of manners and the fact that they are on their station. BUT The fedeartion citizens believe that they are “just powerful aliens” right up til the end. Only Sisko gives in a little. But Obrian, dax, Bashir and the rest don’t buy it. They all make what are outright deragatory comments about the Profet’s being Aliens and that the Bajorans’s being dumbass’s for their religion fairly reguarly. As a matter of fact , based on Keiko Obrians school lesson episode … it was federation policy that the prophets were jsut aliens.
Fedeartion people more respect religion as a cultural practice, than a valid way of makeing decisions. (Like Picard has a christmas tree for his family in generations… but doesn’t believe in christianity.) I mean the religiouns leader is the big villian fairly often in ds9. And even before Kai Wynn was the big villian the term “the Vedicts” was often used to describe the ignorant closed minded elements of their society. ( Like “the Vedicts aren’t going to like this…” in order to describe soemting that YOU the viewer know needs to happen for the Bajorans)
Picard states in several episodes that religion is universly looked down apon by all members of the federation. I am sure this doen’t mean the indians shouldn’t have cultural festivals with an origin in religion. It just means that he honestly doesn’t believe there is in validity in any “indian lore”
If the Indians had merely kept their culture… but acted secular TNG like it would have fit. Instead they set up the wishy washy double standard. Slow talk… sitting bull sterotype. Like all Indians.
The Beverly Hillbilly’s handled modern Indians in a better light in 1967. ( The Beverly Hillbillies: The Indians are Coming ) surely Star Trek could have figured it out by the early 90’s.