GWC Podcast #73

Good point. That combined with Kendra referred to as ‘My Child’ by the Old Hybrid has got me wondering if we’ve seen the 5th?

On a related point with the podcast Chuck and Audra were discussing if what the Old Hybrid said can be trusted because it comes from the Cylon perspective. However, I kind of agree with Audra that the Old Hybrid appears to speak from a perspective independent from the Cylons. I would argue that in fact the Hybrids and Oracles appear to be generally impartial when it comes to giving out prophesy. For example, the Oracle was perfectly willing to provide a reading for Dianna on New Caprica. It seems that they tend to “call it as they see it” with little bias from their human or Cylon perspectives. However, that still doesn’t mean that we or any one else has interpreted their prophesies correctly.

There was some talk about Kara possibly being the 5th cylon- possible but that would not explain why in Farm they would want to harvest her ovaries, then again, Kara and the audience are made to assume they did that. they have not actually proved that did they?

Another point, “baby” Adama was seen in the ship with the tub of goo. (same corridor was used later when Kendra and Kara attack the ship) It was when he placed his hand into the goo that he had the visions of what may have been the past OR future. Then something grabs him but it is not really there. Is the Goo the time travel device for the hybrid?
Finally That said, I believe Adama was originally on the ship itself without knowing it. We see him exit what looks like a building, but that may have been the ‘port’ so to say for the ship. Any thoughts? And what happens to the people that did not get out? those were not the same ones saved by Kara- they were 2 of the 5 Raptor members, Correct?

I think that Cain was a good peerson before the attacks. In this podcast Sean says that she was always bad, I disagree. Admiral Cain seemed very friendly on a non-military level, she had a healthy relationship with her XO before the attack. Her morals were a victim of circumstances, think about it, her lover is a cylon, her fleet has been destroyed, as far as she knows her crew are the last humans, and too top it all off in their first battle with the cylons they lost dozens of vipers. So I just wanted to mention that. Its not an excuse for what she did, but I think it can explain some things.

I just remembered that a certain other Starbuck was the XO of the Peaquad, The whaling ship captained by Ahab in Moby Dick. In that story, Starbuck was rattled with the lunacy of his captain and was the only officer that saw the problem with hunting the white whale after the crew was all aboard with the captain.

Point taken, I take Ron to be a educated man, Starbuck’s name being the coincidence, I still believe she will be the savior and not the end of humanity.

I just finished listening to the great podcast and going through the comments, I thought when I posted my thoughts on the liveblog thread that my ideas were all insightful and original, only to hear that Sean, Audra and Chuck noticed and proceeded to mention ALL the same points as well as adding a lot more as well. Kudos to the three of you!

Andy L: I agree with your crew assessments for Pegasus and Galactica, remember that Cally was only on the deck crew to pay for dental school for example.

Gafra: Starbuck is THE battle warrior, she seemed to get pan training (maybe not too realistic, but in this show, that’s the way it is), it’s not that she’s only happy when she’s in a cockpit, she’s at her best when she is in control of a weapon, any weapon, usually that’s while sitting in a cockpit with missiles and guns at the ready or as a ground soldier with a machine gun in tow… HELL she did pretty well back on bombed out Caprica when she was on the mission to return the Arrow, her weapons were her BARE HANDS and she ended up taking out a Six model all by herself! Outside of battle, she’s basically swimming in alcohol, we see this while she’s CAG, when she’s with Anders, we even see it in the Pegasus kitchen when she finds Kendra with her radio and needle o’ fun!

TheLonelyGod: Don’t forget, IF Roslyn HAD won the election, she wouldn’t have had the option to surrender, since she would not have settled on New Caprica for that year, they would have stopped off to rest and left, since she didn’t want to settle there, she wants EARTH and at the time of the election, remember the change in plans for the cylons that the Brother Cavils were talking about when they just stopped attacking the Caprica rescue party/Anders and crew? The humans would have kept on the move and may never have run into the Cylons again.

I wonder what the definition of a “battle warrior” is though. If that title belongs to anyone it belongs to Cain. We’ve seen a softer side to Starbuck: when she thought Casey was her child, somewhat falling for Anders, regrets over passing Apollo’s brother in flight school etc etc. A battle warrior would be a stone-cold killer. Starbuck is just very skilled at her trade in craft. She does what she has to do, whereas Cain is just plain ruthless in revenge, as we have seen in her turning on the Pegasus six model.

gaf

I agree with this quote. I think the “My child” reference has more to do with the fact that the first hybrid is seeing himself as a more godlike figure and would probably refer to humans and cylons as “my children”, instead of having the reference mean that Kendra is the fifth.

I know one person who is in the Army that is a really nice person and generally a good friend, but after knowing him for several years, I wouldn’t have been surprised if I had seen him on the news involved with some sort of incident involving the killing of civilians the last time he deployed to Iraq. Having know a LOT of other Army people (I’m an ex Air Force guy myself) he is an exception to the rule. So saying that Cain was a good person to start with may not be acurate. We just don’t know how she really felt about anyone that wasn’t wearing a uniform, if she really felt that civilians were expendible before the war or if the attack changed her.

I’m sure you will find that a very large part of the crews on the ships were in for the same reason. I joined to get my college education too. The reasons for joining shouldn’t affect crew quality, what would be an effect on quality be training time and the quality of the senior NCOs and Officers.

I disagree that a battle warrior would be a stone cold killer. A good soldier should be a professional, fighting as well as possible until the fight is over. There might be a need for ruthlessness, but it shouldn’t be the first choice. Stone-cold killers would make poor warriors but great mass murders.

Excellent connection to Melville! I, too, hope that Kara turns out to be savior and not downfall of the human race. Audra mentioned that “the end” could mean the end of the journey. In Greek, “telos” means “end,” and it means the fulfillment, the consummation – so perhaps that Kara Thrace will be the “tellos” of the human race. Also, “apocalypse” is not necessarily a negative term. Although it has become negative in popular usage, it literally (again in Greek) simply means “unveiling” or (as the last book in the Bible) “Revelation” – the uncovering of things previously unseen. So “harbinger of the apocalypse” could just mean Kara will effect some great revelation (the location of Earth?)

And, yes, the Hybrid said something about death – but, perhaps as in the Harry Potter saga, “death” need not be assumed to be something negative.

I don’t know, I doubt the show will rely on Greek etymology to turn the Hybrid’s words into a postive prophecy… but one never knows!

Chiming in on another topic, I hope Kendra is not the fifth. I will feel cheated if the fifth is a character we’ve never known or even heard about before. I agree with the poster above who hinted that Baby Adama sticking his fingers in the goo could be bad news later on… maybe Leoben was right after all.

I am also amazed again at how “conicidental” it is that so many of the 12 Cylon models – Sharon, and the four revealed in Crossroads II – have shown up aboard the Galactica. I’ve wondered beofore if the Galactica surviving the attacks was part of the Cylon plan, and am still wondering.

Okay, I’ve been running the scene with the hybrid and Kendra through my mind over and over again, and this is what I come up with…

First, the “my child” and “my children” references: i’m not sure if this hybrid is truly a cylon in itself or a hacked human, perhaps someone that baby adama saw locked up… so maybe he/it refers to Kendra as my child as she is human/same species (mostly)… and for the comment that “my children believe i am a god” i think he could be referring to the follow-on hybrids or the guardians as he is the first therefore he could be the “maker” of the hybrids

i am also wondering if in making the hybrid, if the experimenting with several humans and hooking them up with machines had a weird effect that gives the hybrids their “seeing” ability…perhaps somewhat like the reverend mothers in dune where they are all connected, and this gives them the ability somehow to know the thoughts and experiences of others? i’m also wondering about baby adama’s mini projection and its erie resemblance of the hybrid grabbing baltar’s hand in the goo… telling the future?

for this first hybrid, i do not believe he is controlling the ship as the other hybrids do… he is more coherent for one thing, and the guardians seem to be occupied with pegasus… plus he seems too interested in Kendra and the upcoming apocalypse

as for the apocalypse, i think we can subjectively break this down with possible missing subjects:

“Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse. The harbinger of death. They must not follow her.”

While the “end” could mean death, it could also mean earth…but I’m not convinced of whose apocalypse this could be referring to… because if the hybrid was once a whole person, he could for all purposes be really pissed at the cylons who could be the subject of the “they”

about the harbinger: any thoughts of a missing link between kara and hera? kara is the sign of the coming death of humans/cylons while hera is the sign of their replacement?

and last thought: remember the baltar/hybrid discussion–

“The five lights of the apocalypse rising struggling towards the light, the sins revealed only to those who enter the temple only to the chosen one.”

okay… so if we assume kara is the herald of the apocalypse…then can we assume she is not the fifth cylon? the final four are her lights and we have yet to be revealed the last light? could we also assume kara is “the light”? and the sins revealed to d’anna…were those the cylon sins? and she apologized for the cylon community?

an awful lot to digest, i realize…but definitely makes me wonder…

I haven’t read the whole thread, but has anyone considered the possibiility that the Hyrbid was lying?

In the style of Leoben? Yes.

Does anyone remember this Voyager episode ‘Equinox’? I find the characters and the storylines of Capt. Rudy Ransom and Adm. Cain interestingly similar. The two-part episode was aired at the end of season 5 and beginning of season 6… when Ron D. Moore was a producer on the show for a few months :slight_smile:

just some thoughts
maby the hybrad was reffering to a apacolyps in the faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar future
Kara leads them to Earth
Which eventually leads them to the other 12 colonies
which leads to cylons
which leads to an apyoclypse
and on th the hybrad w/ baltar

“The five lights of the apocalypse rising struggling towards the light, the sins revealed only to those who enter the temple only to the chosen one.”
sins----if childerd are required wouldnt machine/human hybrads be a sin

also like i pointed out ages ago, and was reinforced Galactica was MEANT to survive. they knew where the Battlestars would be
they knew where the viper patrolls would be
they could have distroyed galactica if they had wanted to they easily could have sent 20 ships to ragnocor anchorage, but they didnt, they oculd have killed the humans many times, but chose not to because they need them
Diana says “we have uses for you” to baltar on New caprica, she was thinking ahead

also i believe cavil was the 1st cylon and he know what it SUPOSED to happen, bu ti dosent. Taking a peice form the matrix, i think this cycle is an anomoly i think somehow it is different from any other cycle. why was Neo’s cycle different, love for Trinity. why is this cycle different Helo’s love for Sharon

Could the Hybrid by lying? Maybe.
Is the Hybrid lying? I don’t think so. The Hybrid seems so much more of a “Big Picture” sort of entity, where as Leobin seems much more of a low level trouble maker that is trying to be a male 6.
On the other hand, we may not be interpreting what the Hybrid is saying correctly. It can correct and accurate in what it is saying, but we may not understand it’s real meaning.

The crew sort of revealed that theory in podcast 73- if you listen to the writers podcast, I really don’t think they put that much attention into what the weapon really was, therefore the intended or unintended ambiguity is still there in the final draft on screen. :confused:

Yep, that’s what I think too. Compare the Hybrid to an Issac Mendez painting from Heroes. Absent extraordinary actions, they come true, but not necessarily in the way you expect (think season 1, rather than season 2, where they do seem more literal).


Vapor genie

Ah, prophecies. I agree with the general consensus that there’s more going on with this prophecy in particular; there has to be a bait-and-switch going on, giving us information that is true but unfolds in a way that we completely don’t expect.

“Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her.”

Initially, I went to the OED to figure out exactly what “harbinger” meant, realizing that it’s one of those words that I throw around without really knowing what it means because I’ve heard other people use it. It’s interesting. The definition that seems to apply here is “One that goes before and announces the approach of some one; a forerunner,” but it also used to mean “One who provides lodging…harbourer.” But then I got into looking up other words, and that was a lot more fun.

As Mike P. pointed out, “apocalypse” is the really deceptive one. There are two definitions, and which one applies here depends on whether the Hybrid was talking more about a “big A” Apocalypse or “little a” apocalypse. “Big A” Apocalypse is “The ‘revelation’ of the future granted to St. John in the isle of Patmos. The book of the New Testament in which this is recorded.” In fact, some even call that book of the Bible “The Apocalypse of John.” That seems to be how “Big A” Apocalypse became synonymous with the imagery in “big R” Revelation: end times, four horsemen, seven seals, death, destruction, etc. As Mike P. said, “Little a” apocalypse’s definition is simply “any revelation or disclosure.” I think we’re all hoping that Kara is going to lead the humans (and us viewers) to some sort of revelation about what the frak is going on here. Even if it turns out to really be “big A” Apocalypse, the Apocalypse of John and other apocalyptic writings belonging to this tradition actually have happy endings. Yes, there’s a lot of craaaap for the good guys to go through, but the good guys always win; Apocalypses describe the end of all the bad things in the world, not necessarily the end of all things. (For anybody curious about the apocalyptic literary tradition and how apocalypse is different from prophecy, PBS’s Frontline has a nice collection of essays about it on its website.)

And “end”? For the noun form alone, there are fifteen definitions, along with I don’t know how many sub-definitions. My favorite for this case: “A final cause. The object for which a thing exists; the purpose for which it is designed or instituted.”

On top of all this, the hybrid’s prophecy proves that the future he’s predicting is not unchangeable. If it was set in stone that Kara was going to lead the human race to its end and so forth, why bother saying, “They must not follow her.”? If the future is unchangeable, he might as well have just told Kendra, “Don’t feel bad about the whole blowing us to bits thing, kid. Everybody else is just as thoroughly frakked as we are–they just don’t know it yet.” Giving a warning implies that choice still has the power to change the future, or at the very least that what the hybrid foresees is one of multiple possible futures.

And I’d completely forgotten about the other hybrid’s prediction about the “five lights of the apocalypse”–good call, Kirsten! I thought “the light” they were struggling towards was knowledge of their true selves, but Kara has been identified with Aurora, the goddess of the dawn (and new beginnings)…it would make sense.

Great post, Kappa. I too think the “apocalypse” may not be a bad thing. We’ve heard that all this has happened before, and all this will happen again and that the Colonials are in a cycle of time with repeating actions. What if the “apocalypse” the hybrid spoke of referred to breaking out of this cycle?

Someone in the RTF should send the Cylons a copy of Emerson’s “Self Reliance” (or, better yet, his collected essays) and convince them that it comes from the Cylon god. They’ll quest for their own perfection, get super introspective, and develop a complex which convinces them that they are not qualified to judge the humans or try to change them.

I actually disagree with you both, Gafra and Sean, at least in part.

My take is that Starbuck was raised to be isolated and alone in many ways- from what we’ve seen and heard, her mother drilled into her that you can’t trust people, that your supports will never be there when you need them, and that Kara was special- that she had some special purpose in life that set her apart from others.

That upbringing has shaped her: Starbuck doesn’t do well with orders or with empathy, and for those reasons she’s not a great leader. You’re totally right that she sees problems with a much more limited scope than a battle commander would need to, but she also hasn’t had that much experience- that’s something you learn and develop.

It’s true that Adama has kind of sidelined her, but I think it’s about her personal problems than her inability to develop the right skills to become a masterful tactician. She did pretty frakking well with a few of her attempts (the Water episode) and also frakked up some others (the Cloud Nine hostage situation) but as a captain who’s barely over 30, she should have had some time.

The reality is, however, that Kara was shaped to be “the tip of the spear,” and Adama took that and used it, because he has had to- he doesn’t have the luxury of nurturing his crew when he needs their skills elsewhere. She’s become sharper and more dangerous over the course of the series. Starbuck is a loaded gun, now, but I don’t necessarily think that it is because of the limits of character, but rather about the forces that have influenced her to develop certain parts of herself over others.

I think the difference between those two interpretations of Kara’s character is important because it affects what one thinks of the idea of Kara Thrace and Her Special Destiny-- whether or not to trust her.

Also, I’m kinda attached to Kara. As my moniker indicates, she’s my favorite (her and the Chief). And she’s wicked pretty.