sdbdrummer: I think you’re spot on with that post. We do tend to look at the world of BSG through our Ralph Lauren glasses and imagine that situation in our own lives. It couldn’t be further from our reality. And the decisions they make, when viewed from our 2007 USA prospective, may not seem morally correct to us, they may be the best they can do with their own limitations and the situational realities. Ever since the beginning of Season 3, I’ve had a real problem with everyone in the Fleet praising the resistance and Tigh and blaming Balter. If Balter had not surrendered, there would be no Fleet to form a resistence. Thank the Gods that Roslyn didn’t win, or they’d all be dead now. As you note, Balter signed the death warrants, but so what. The paper was more of a psychological game with Balter than anything else. They were already dead, the cylons were just carrying the bullets a while. Tigh, on the other hand, his orders led to the deaths of many innocents. And he is praised for it. We all have our parts to play and not everyone will like the other’s roles. Personally, I’m glad I’m sitting at my desk in the US, not at on the Galactica. Because I know that I would have ended up doing things that seemed right at the time but later slowly ate away at my soul …
I’d have to disagree with you on this one. It’s a very easy thing to sit back and talk from a perspective of American morality. To say “it’s wrong because I know it’s wrong and it’s that black and white” completely ignores the nature of mankind. Look at history. Look at different parts of the world today. Our American sense of morality is very much in the minority in terms of overall human population. Mankind is capable of very evil things. Tyrants, dictatorships, etc. We as a species inflilct the most horrific tortures on each other, every day. When man shows itself to be capable of such acts towards other humans why would more restrained when dealing with a cylon?
@ Toaster hunter(cool name)
In terms of Legality? That cut and dried? INMO yes. You always have a choice, yes maybe I have “moral stick shoved up my ass” but that’s what I believe. If you would rather die with your high morals, or continue living as shitbag, well as sdbdrummer was getting at: who knows? Most people in this world would choose to live. About the POW… Firstly when the colonials signed an armistice with the Cylons, as far as I’m concerned, they acknowledged them as independent and equal beings. Secondly yes the Cylons are some seriously evil dudes, but when you start allowing your soldiers to rape them, are you any better? Like Adama asked, “do we deserve to live?” yes I realize the argument is flawed, killing billions of humans versus the raping of one cylon. Doesn’t make it right though.
@ sdbdrummer
You are right; Fisk shooting Cain in the back of the head wouldn’t fly. But did you see the look of horror on everyone’s face when Cain suggested what she wanted done with the civilian fleet? I think Fisk could have very easily found some likeminded people, and relieved her of command. Coarse the problem being legal grounds for him to do so. Plus a lack of balls.
I think it was a pretty interesting statement you made about Tigh in particular. I have been a bit of a hypocrite in regards to his behavior I’ll admit. I like the guy and gave him a free pass in my head. But is he any better than say Cain or Kendra? If he is, not by much.
Ultimately this is one of the things I enjoy about Bsg, is how they ask these serious kinds of questions.
sooo…Sharon is more than just naughty?
I do see your point. There is a very real arguement to say that in human history we as a species have done some pretty jacked up things. However, does that make it right? Was Sharons attempted rape right? She was a Cylon. She was a prisoner. It’s a time of war. I don’t think it’s American, European, Muslim or what the frak ever to say, no, it wasn’t right. But hey, that’s just me and my opinion.
besides - as I stated earlier - i don;t think this is a “I’m gonna torture a Cylon and its a time of war” issue - it’s a Cain got hurt and she wants to pay Gina back issue.
Absolutely correct on this one. Cain was ticked, but as far as the rest of the crew going along with it I think that the fact she was a cylon made for a moral disconnect in their minds. People at war tend to dehumanize their enemies. It makes it easier to hate and to feel morally justified in whatever you do. That whole process of dehumanizing the enemy is kinda short-circuited when the enemy really isn’t human.
Absolutely agreed on this one.
Also, I can’t help but think - we should definitely remember that we’re sitting in comfort and security when we discuss these issues, but we also shouldn’t discount certain ideas just because they come from someone who is comfortable and secure. Some of the greatest moral leaders of our time wrote and spoke about things in a philosophical way. Just because Emerson (and more specifically, Thoreau) lived in a nice house and weren’t in the military doesn’t mean their ideas about justice, morality, and civic duty should be ignored. People like Thoreau influenced people like Martin Luther King to make positive changes, and if we threw away his ideas because he’s too “soft” or whatever, we lose a lot more than we might think.
It are these kinds of discussions that makes Battlestar remarkable to me. We can endlessly discuss the nuances and shades of gray the show presents us. There is no cut and dry or simple answers. Who is the person in the right during the occupation, Tigh or Baltar? Is Cain big E evil or is she a product of her specific situation and history?
To me the most significant moment of Razor was Adama speaking to Lee about Cain. When he said something to the effect of, “I understand her actions and was capable of them. If it wasn’t for you, Tigh and Laura I could have gone down that path.”
As for the other hotbutton topic, torture, I will admit to you at the risk of taking an unpopular position that I struggle with whether or not I am revulsed by it. It is very easy for us in our comfortable chairs in our comfortable lives to play armchair quarterback and say, “I would do the right thing in this situation.” If this show demonstrates anything doing the right thing doesn’t necessarily lead you down the right path. Adama and Laura doing the wrong thing would have been stealing the election. They did the right thing, Baltar was elected, you know the rest. Is the physical and/or psychological torture of a prisoner wrong? Of course. Is it possible that doing something as horrible as torture can result in something positive that saves lives? Yes.
There is the rub. There is the show. Where is the bright line to not cross? Do we have to cross it from time to time? What is the fundamental difference in sending someone off to certain death and shooting them point blank?
This show is the best thing on television, period.
Percisely Audra
I mean who knows what would happen if you met Brother Cavil? (snicker). It’s easy to say how gross he is in a comfortable spot…but if ya met him…
(runs away quickly)
I’m not trying to argue the right and wrong of things because I do think that morally all of us here are on the same page. What I’m really responding to is all the statements of “How could these people let this happen” “Why didn’t somebody stand up to this” etc… I guess what I’m trying to say is that everything portrayed here, the good choices, the bad choices, and the e(E)vil choices are all very human.
</channels Bit from Tron - ON>
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
</channels Bit from Tron - OFF>
I didn’t say we should discount their ideals, I stated that I would hope the better angels of our nature would win, all i’m saying is that when the world is blowing up around you and everyone you know is either dead or dying and there seems to be no hope. Well, at times like that I doubt you’d be quoting Thoreau or Martin Luther King.
That is probably the BEST description of Gina / Six I have ever seen.
gaf
Wow. “Shaken not stirred” takes an entirely new sexy meaning.
With a twist.
and a swirl.
For the record, we keep refering to this dialogue so I thought I would share it here:
William Adama: I’ve been going through Cain’s log and from a tactical perspective it’s hard to find fault in anything she did. Or that Kendra Shaw did.
Lee Adama: They butchered innocent civilians, Dad. Come on. How can you ignore that?
William Adama: I know that I didn’t have to face any of the situations that she did. I had the President in my face, arguing for the survival of the civilian fleet. I’ve Colonel Tigh keeping me honest, balancing my morality and my tactics. And I had you. Now…you don’t have any children, so you might not understand this, but you see yourself reflected in their eyes. And there are some things that I’ve thought of doing with this fleet, but I’ve stopped myself, because I knew I’d have to face you the following day.
When cain observes how Kendra never left her post, it was a little reminiscent of Boomer being in such good shape during 33’s all-nighters. Not to mention her hazy dream-like shooting of the civilian.
I’d only like this to be true cause I really like the actress and character.
SS
Giggedy giggedy --alll riiiight:D
I’ll have to go back and look, but I thought sure Sharon snapped at somebody…lieka shut the frak up kinda thing.
could be wrong tho…
grumble grumble… go do your job…