my forum skills are mad awesome
Put down the sugar, Boxy. They’ll get to your call.
I win
no contest
i have 3 OGrs and Chuck on my side
its all a joke
i wanted to figure out how to use this multi-quote thingy
On the American Gladiator’s return: I had heard something about this before the writer’s strike, with the new host being (cue music-oh wait this is a post…damn) Hulkimania itself-Hulk Hogan! (you may groan now)
For some reason, the Quizno’s adds were not on the Dish service, so I missed out on this fine piece of marketing (but I got to see it on the Quinzno’s thread)
As for the jamming, I think the hybrid really has no control of a tacticle situation. The hybrid makes the grand “plans” but the cylons centurions themselves do all the tactical actions so while the hybrid wanted everyone to know the “Kara Thrace” will bring ruin to everything, Larry (or his brother Daryll, or his other brother Daryll) picked up a new transmittion and jammed it.
Now the questin becomes-what happened to all those raiders that were between Pegasus and the basestar? Self-destruct? Go looking for the other cylons?
Totally concur Armando, Heroes rocks!
As to the jamming, remember Adama said the Raiders were in air defense mode. ECW and jamming of possible inbound missiles/ordnance could account for the jamming of Shaw’s message.
Or it could have been the Hybrid… for whatever reason.
Or, she could have forgotten to change out the batteries in her comm unit. Murphy comes to visit at the most inopportune times.
I read those as well, being the geek that I am. I was trying to see some stat on how long Pegasus’ last deployment prior to refit lasted. A long cycle of border patrol will wear down a crew. As will remaining at a heightened level of alert for long periods, as a combat patrol would involve.
I also have to wonder, along with Topgun, how much of the readiness degradation is a result of budget cuts. Yes, they are refitting the battlestar, but to keep up their training tempo, they need fuel, ammunition (live and practice) and replacement parts.
Part of the slide could be due to Cain’s leadership style… but that doesn’t explain everything.
Guys, I wanted to bring up a couple of points regarding Starbuck’s apparent lack of progression in in the ranks.
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It always bothered me that a commander would use a highly qualified specialist like a trained viper pilot in ground based assaults. It’s dumb. I know plotlines must allow it, but seriously it’s like taking Maverick out of his Tomcat, giving him a machine gun and telling him to storm a bunker. It would not happen. There are soldiers trained for ground assault and there are pilots trained for air assault. And never the twain shall meet.
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In a similar vein, a clever commander knows his crew and their strengths. Some are leaders. Some are technically minded. Some are strategists. And some are just darned good in a fight. Like Starbuck. You are right: she is a loaded gun. It’s what she does, and does very well. Adama knows this and, just like any other commander, he’s just appointing his crew according to their strengths and weaknesses.
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Let’s face it, Starbuck has been in hack enough times not to be promoted on that basis alone. Yes she’s good, but an effective military must have an effective system of following orders. Of course that can be taken to far, a’la Pegasus…
In summary, Starbuck belongs in a cockpit. Leave her there and she is happy. And a happy Starbuck is an effective Starbuck.
gaf
Well I can’t argue with you there Gafra. Your second point is actually what I was trying to say on the cast only you said it better… bravo!
A couple of points about the p’cast: Alot to say
I remember this scene pretty clearly since I watched it a few days before Razor. In the final Pegasus ep in Season 2, Baltar pats Gina on the butt and sends her off to seek her revenge. Cain says, “Frak you!” Gina says, “You’re not my type.” This struck me, even back when I first saw it way back when. I thought to myself, “What the hell does that mean?” Now we know. This leads into my second point about the podcast.
Gina IS the ultimate infiltrator. The Cylon 007. She IS the infiltrator model. The Sixes deserve the Cylon equivalent of the Medal of Honor. I guess she did get that with the whole Hero of the War/Caprica Six distinction.
We all know Boomer was pretty much useless untill she shot Adamma. Granted Doral was on Galactica for a bit but what did he really do? Nothing. So was Brother Cavil. As far as we know neither did much spying, but the Sixes’ did the heavy lifting. Think Gina, Caprica and the Six from Season 1 that fingered Baltar as a traitor to the humans. All excellent manipulators and seductresses. Intelligent, deadly and sexy. I caught a shiver when in Razor, Gina was “outed” and proceeded to snap that Marines neck and point the gun on Cain. MMMMMM…toasty!
Funny how the scene was similar to the Brother Cavil reveal. She says, “No I’m not!” in that indignant way. Sees the screen and for a second gives the Brother Cavil “oh boy” look and proceeds to take action. LOL.
About Hybrids. I recall that in Season 3 around the Cylon disease eps, the skinjobs decided to leave behind one of the basestars because it was infected and the didn’t want the models to download into the Resurrection ship. Anyhoo, the collective Cylons decided to bounce, ordered the Hybrid to bounce out of there and she/it disagreed by letting out a shrill cry. When did the Hybrids lose their pull? If Grandpa hybrid was the original “Cylon God”, how did they lose that respect once the skinjobs came along?
Lastly about the whole Starbuck as potential leader thing. To Lee, Starbuck will always be a Frak up. She never seems to get the big picture. Plus, she shot him! Because of her recklessness, he got shot in the hostage ep in Season 2. And she still hasn’t proven she can think straight, all the way up to Maelstrom. She always Fraks things up, then tries to pull it all together at the end. Even when she was CAG aboard Pegasus, she needed Lee to help her plan the attack on the Resurrection ship. At least Tigh can plan a insurgency and even sorta ran things after Adamma was shot. Again, sorta.
That is all.
A quick thought on the babbling of the hybrids. The hybrid in Razor says that Starbuck is the harbinger of the apocalypse, that she will destroy all mankind. Perhaps this ties back to the babbling of hybrid in season 3 and the D’anna’s dreams with the glaring END OF LINE. At the time this really didn’t make any sense, but i’m seeing new meaning to it now.
It would seem that the old man in the tub was god to that specific group of Larrys. Apparently the others disagreed.
Hey guys. Michael from Charlotte here again. I’ve been keeping most of my e-mails and posts short and mostly about the strike and related things, but I
thought this would be a good time to go in to a little deeper areas.
If you will allow me, I would like to play Devils advocate for a few minutes and offer a different, less black and white take on events both in season three
and in the most recent chunk of greatness: Razor.
Sean, I hope you don’t break your halo when you fall off your big high horse. 
It is exceedingly easy to say with certainty what we would and would not do in a given situation when we have never been faced with said situation.
To sit in the comfort of our homes, surrounded by friends and people we love and who love us and say with all this moral athourity that under no circumstance
would we follow an order such as the one Caine gave her XO or Doral gave Baltar is far too easy. I’m not saying that either of those orders were right or
just, of course not. They were rehensible and evil by almost any standard.
What I am saying is that we, and by that I mean none of us, can really know what we would do in a situation until we are faced with it ourselves. We all hope
that the better angels of our nature will prevail, but we can never really know.
Case in point, on the latest podcast (#73) there was some discussion about what would happen following Caines execution of her XO.
Someone said that if they were Fisk, they would just say “yes ma’am” and wait until her back was turned and then shoot her. The military just doesn’t work
that way.
The command structure is drilled in to every recruit from the day they hit basic training. And by the time they have worked their way to the CIC of a
Battlestar, the instinct to question command, esp that of an Adriral has been beaten and in every way driven from the crew. Now, let’s add to that fact that
we are at war. Not only our homes and our families, but our entire WORLD has been completely detroyed. As far as we know we are the only surviving Battlestar
out of a fleet of 90. (in the mi ni-series, Adama told Kara that 30 battlestars had been destroyed and she said that was a third of the fleet).
So as far as you know, you are the last three thousand or so humans left in exsistance. Your ship has taken several hits, you are facing an enemy that
outguns you ten thousand to one, never tires, never needs rest, and has made it clear that your total destruction is one of their primary goals. This is no
mere barfight where pride and bluster is going to win the day.
At this time, as in no other, the crew looks to the commader or the admiral for direction. She is the God figure of the ship. After being drilled for so long
to obey without question any order given, do you really think, in the middle of arrmageddon, the end of the frakkin world, that you are going to pull a moral
stepstool out of your ass and climb up on it to say what you will and will not do and what is right and wrong. You may and probably will do that later, but
at that moment, in the heat of it all, you don’t wait for the only command figure you have left to turn their back and then shoot them.
Because if you do, and I know i’m going to get reamed on this, but if you do…what does that make you? are you the new captain? Are you going to be looking
over your shoulder to see if any of the crew doesn’t “believe” in what your new orders are? Is there another officer on his own moral high horse who will
take it upon themselves to “relieve” you of command?
Are you at least getting an idea why this wouldn’t work?
And lest we think that no one would follow a leader like that, someone who would shoot an officer for refusing an order in a wartime situation, I give you
Michelle Forbes own words in the new issue of TV Guide. She Calls Caine “Saddam Hussein with bangs” which I think fits prefectly.
How many times could his own people have shot him? And all those who didn’t…does that mean that they’re all evil? I think not. I am aware of the saying
that all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing, but this situation lies outside of that in my opinion.
I remember time and again on the podcast (which I absolutely love and never miss, so don’t think i’m a hater…just devil’s advocate) where it’s been said
that if Adama threatened my wife, I’d shoot him, or if the president said or did this or that, I’d have to shoot her or words to that effect and it always
makes me laugh.
You talk as if these things happen in a vaccume. Let’s not discount the marines and guards and Adama himself stopping this from happening. The only thing
that would happen is that you would be shot, and either killed outright or airlocked for treason. Those kinds of macho gestures only get you killed in the
real world, or in this case, the world of BSG.
And I guess this brings me to why i’ve always been sympathetic (to a degree) to Baltar. He was placed in an impossible situation on new caprica. When the
cylons showed up, in force and demanded the complete surrender. With the fleet having jumped away and no organized fighting force…what exactly was he to
do?
The same goes for the signing of the death list. Yes, it was horrible and beyond the pale, but again…what is the option? You hold on to your morals and
say no, they shoot you, grab the next person and demand the same…he says no, they shoot them and so on until either they have killed everyone, or they find
someone who will sign. Either way, you’re dead. and once you’re dead, that’s it. it’s over.
I think Caine actually said it best, and I paraphrase: We do terrible things in war…we become something less than human so that humanity can survive and go
back to being simply human.
What the characters in BSG face is not war. We have no reference point for what they face. it’s a battle against exstinction. And as more time passes and
choices…hard choices have to be made, you can see it effect people like Adama and Roslin. The same way it effected Tigh on new caprica. They face odds that
never seem to even out. On new caprica, in ep 1@2 of season 3, Tigh advocated suicide bombings of not only cylons and collaborators, but setting off suicide
bombs in an open market with just everyday people…go back and check it out, I did. And yet we praise him for not taking any craaaap and talk about him
being a hero of the resistance.
Think long and hard about that. He had no qualms about ordering those suicide bombings, and yet we climb on that old familar high moral horse and damn
Baltar for signing an order that had absolutely no effect on the outcome. We say that every one has a choice…if that’s true, then so did Tigh. Tyrol said
“col. there are innocent civillians in the market” Tigh made the choice anyway. I don’t know and the show never says explicitly if they did bomb the
markets, but either way, he MADE that decision. And he did so without a gun to his head.
Does that excuse Baltar? no. But I can’t sit here and swear to you that in his place I wouldn’t have done the same. Baltar realized a key point. The humans
on New Caprica continued to live and beath only at the sufferage of the Cylons.
They could have done what Hicks advocated in ALIENS. “take off and nuke the planet from space”.
We tend to think in terms of a fair fight. or the occupation of a country…this was not the case. This was the occupation of a planet, with thirty-odd
thousand souls under the boots of an advanced robotic army that will kill without hesitation and just move on to the next thing.
Again, i’m not saying that either Tigh or Baltar was right. all things being even, the choices were wrong. But that’s the point…all things are NOT equal.
And yet week after week we judge their actions based on the concept of “fair”.
After the original attacks, Roslin and to an extent Adama came at it the same way…trying to move forward like things had not fundamentaly changed.
What we see as the series moves through seasons 2 and 3 is Roslin and Adama coming to terms with the fact that, to a certain extent, the old rules don’t
apply anymore.
You can’t always be fair. You can’t always carry on with all the colonial rights intact. That realization is what is turning them darker leading them into a
gray area, instead of the black and white that we all seem to want from our sci-fi.
We Want Adama to be heroic and the iron fist of justice, but what RDM and the writers keep telling us is that he is human. Just human. Humans make mistakes.
Humans have breaking points.
I think learning that Gina, the one person she had let get close, was a cylon was the breaking point for Caine. She may have been bent before, but that broke
her.
When you’re under so much stress and there seems to be no relief and no hope…the line between good and evil becomes a little more blurry than when we’re
safe at home passing judgement.
Just something to think about…
Michael.
Carolina_projectionist2005@yahoo.com
Your post is interesting, but a bit long, so I just wanted to make a quick reply. Yes respect for the chain of command is instilled, as is NOT following illegal orders. Raping a prisoner? definitely illegal.
I would like to say more, but need to get back to work, I look forward to discussing this.
Is it really that cut and dry? Especially in terms of legality. Just because cylons look human are they automatically accorded the same rights as a human, especially during a time of war?
Whuddup all? Just realized this is the first 'cast I have listened to with new content to talk about. Which shows how frakkin long it’s been since we’ve had new content to talk about.
First, as always, lovin the 'cast. You guys are the best.
Second, I think Cain opened up to Gina more than she had to anyone, maybe not completely, but enough. Her rage was way beyond shooting an XO in the head. She wanted to punsih Gina, not get intel.
Third, (much as I love KT (hhmmmm…Katee…KT…wierd) I don’t want to believe she is the harbringer of doom, and pestience and bad hair days. However, Grandpa Goo seemed pretty sure. And that means that that particular Hybrid was working on the side of humanity. And the Cylons found out the was spillin the beans, so they blocked the transmission.
Fourth, Kendra Shaw = HOT. Just sayin’. sigh always fall for the bad girls…Sharon…Maya from Heroes (season 2, Chuck, ya haven’t missed anything)/
Finally, this just made me realize how much I miss BSG on a regular basis. Andf htink they could have made this into a mini series ro two parter, if nothing else but for character development.
Peace out foo!!
Dave
…and now a reading from the Book of Jayne Cobb:
Don’t get me wrong…Cylons are the bad guys. 'Cept Sharon, she’s just naughty.
but seriously, yeah it kinda is that cut and dry. When we start treating POWs like that (degradation, rape, humiliation), we start becoming worse than the enemy. We lose ourselves and what it means to be human. The one overall message that really came out of this is that there’s more to all this than just surviving. teh surviving is easy…it’s the remaining human that is tough.
However, with a flawed character like Cain, I think the Gina thing wasn’t so mucha POW issue as it was a vengence issue. She didn;t give a flying frak if Gina gave up every basestar location and how to “bring those sons of bitches down” - Cain was hurt, Cain wanted Gina to suffer, Cain got what she wanted.
Just a thought.
Dave