GWC Podcast #165: Trek XI

Podcasts Galactic Watercooler
#81

I’ve been reading a lot around the interwebs the past week about Uhura - obviously I’m not the only person who has qualms about her representation in the film. There are some really interesting critiques out there - if anyone is interested in the full list, PM me and I’m happy to share :slight_smile:

One in particular caught my attention:

Unlike 1967, it is no longer revolutionary to just acknowledge the presence of people-of-color or women. They can’t be the tokens who promise future inclusion, but then step aside when the “real” decisions need to be made. This new Star Trek only sneaked around questions of gender and racial equality. In the end, it is still a “boy’s” franchise that no longer wants to think about contemporary problems of racism and sexism.

#82

Well there are a few little realized facts about TOS Star Trek. Hear me out on this one.

Nichele Nicols got her job on Star Trek because he thought that she was talanted and hot. He put her on his cop show. They Started haveing an afair and he promised her a spot on the new space show. That’s right… the role model got her job partly because she had been one of Rodenberry’s girl’s on the side. ( he was banging Nichols and Barrett at the same time- while he was married) This is common knowledge. It’s in Shatners book Star Trek: Memores and Nichele Nicoles book BEYOND UHURA: STAR TREK AND OTHER MEMORIES.

She effectivly had the same job that women had on cop shows. That’s why she wanted to quit. But Dr. King talked her into staying on the show… because she was an icon to black people. Now I don’t discount that at all. She was the first black woman on prime time television and that was very groundbreaking and important for the growth of our country. But as far as the role being very inspireing to women… I don’t get it. Out of 80 something episodes she really only has like three moments ever where she is particularly heroic. ( nothing as cool as the new uhurah). Not her fault… cause she was rarly in that situation… it was the Kirk, Spock , and Bones show… after all.

So that is my set up. In the context of the 60’s… she was the “lady that answered the phone” (her quote from her book- BTW). When she wasn’t in an episode they just cast another hot girl to sit there in a skirt and say " hailing frequacies open". Given that… eye candy was definitly her job. From singing to spock, to getting hit on by mirror Sulu ( and wearing mirror uniforms no less), to being the bait for the salt vampire… she did act in the roll of the woman in a 60’s show. She was the sex object and lady in distress. Nothing wrong with that… that was the show.

It get’s cancelled.

Fast forward to a few years later when the fans are sitting around talking about it in person ( not unlike what we are doing here) Fans begin to attribute qualities to the charactes that weren’t really there on screen. FAn fiction begins. A cartoon comes out ( Uhura is rarely in , in favor of gene’s wife… Majel as the voice of the other communications officer M’ress) and trek lives a little longer. It goes into syndication where a new generation of young fans watch it. And it’s a great show. It’s adventure.

Now with the new fans, they love it. They have their own reasons for loveing it. A young Sally Ride likes the show. Kirk turns her into a science fiction fan. Uhurah just being there ( and 75 out of 79 times just answers the phone) says it’s not a boys only club. That’s inspireing! Sulu being there shows a young Asian kid that in this fantasy world it’s not “white guys only”. That is wonderful that a mere TV show has that power.

Ok so I ran my mouth forever… here is the point.

All that above is great. The inspiration of trek happened because that show was so great on it’s own… that people attributed qualities to the characters that weren’t actually there. But that’s ok… like Rober Wuell says… in abscense of the truth, believe the myth ( it’s a better story anyway). Sure Gene knew that she was black and that he was doing something new. ( for whatever reason he did it- honorable or otherwise) He wanted an alien on the show because that was going to be good storytelling. A multicultual cast would be great storytelling as well. But mostly imprtantly in this discussion they needed to tell good stories. These characters where writen as stronger than their TV counter parts in novels, comics, and later in movies. This is jsut a value ass as well. Nobody got mad when they changed the character of uhura to give her more purpose! ( well at least not the original uhura… but more on the new one in a min)

So trek gets this reputation that they break boundries. Many avid fan’s claim that THAT is what the show was all about. When in reality, Gene began being praised during the lean years with no trek and was reading his own press. And the media started telling us that Trek wasn’t good because of a great story. No they thought that came second. That the singular thing that made trek great was the diversity, and lessons, the pushing of the envelope.

Some Trekkies got to the point that they DEMANDED that when a new trek comes out that the producers had some kinda obligation to break a new barrier with every new show ( everyone didn’t get what they wanted… but most did). I like to think that Avery Brooks was Sisko because he rocks. I don’t want to think that someone said " we have to get a black guy". But many think that would have been a good attitude to have. I know that’s how Janeway got the job. Star Trek website says that outright… and well, it shows. ( to be fair… Kathrine wasn’t their first choice and she was a last minute casting done DURING filmiing of the pilot)

This is where my trek fans and I split. I think that the diversity, social comentary, and life lessons are a GREAT value-add to Star Trek. They push a great show a little higher to maybe be the Greatest show. But times are changed. The most important thing is tell the good story. excite us. make us feel entertained. Without getting into every different group’s issues. Don’t be too preachy or you alianate the masses, and your trek will fail. Be subtle and we’ll think that you are clever. ( like ds9 as a metaphor for Isrreali/Palastine or the IRA) . GTrek was great and happened to break a few old rules. It’s not bad trek if they don’t break as many… cause there aren’t many more to break. WE live in a great world now.

Besides, if you feel like there was no ground breaking social comentary… how about this; the new movie did break a few rules. I will bragg on it now. Uhurah has a skill other than charm, singing… or in the case of the old movies, rank and age. Now she’s skilled in comunications and linguistics. I believe that it wasn’t done in a PC writers meeting. I bet it was done because it makes a better story! The Captain of the Kelvin, that’s groundbreaking: Pakistani- American. ( kinda new ground being broken- Alexander Seddig is British/Sudeenese) That’s right. While Pakistani civilians are joining the taliban en mass and shooting at my troops. The Star Trek guys cast a Pakistani American as the Kelvin captain. I think it’s great. It shows the kids from pakistan who live here and cringe every time some bad stuff happens over there: A) Look, not all americans hate you… we cast somone you identify with in the new cool movie. and B) Hey american person, look at the cool islamic person that you can look up to and emulate. Pretty ground breaking during a war. Good job JJ. He didn’t have to do it. I don’t think he had a responibility to do it… but it’s good that he did! If he hadn’t done it… I don’t see why that would be something to gripe about either.

#83

Not quite. While Majel does voice M’ress, Nichelle is more prominant in TAS than ever before. She even captains the ship (“The Lorelei Syndrome.”) That was the turn in her role that Dr. King hoped would happen.

Also, Nichelle and Majel voice nearly every female character in the show (with James taking care of most of the males who aren’t stars.)

#84

cant begin to tell ya how wrong that sounds…:smiley:

#85

“I like this ship. It’s exciting!”

Pike proceeds to punch himself in the face

#86

Sometimes you could hear a litle Scotty in Arex. I remeber that. Idon’t remeber Uhurah too much… but for once in trek, my memory isn’t too good with this. I really need to rewatch TAS. I watched it for 4 years on Nickalodean. I never bought the DVD’s … and I don’t realy know why. Other than Quixicotle, tribbles sequal, Harry Mudd, Inflatible Enterprise vs Romulans, Infinite Vulcan, Yester year, and the Holodeck… I can’t really remeber anything else about the series. Wait … I remeber Comadore April’s episode too. But I was in 7th or 8th grade last time Nick aired the show.

I don’t remeber if I liked it… or if I was just being Trek Loyal. Is it worth buying ( for other than Trekkie ownsership purposes)? Is it worth actually rewatching?

#87

It’s pretty good, actually. There are some clunkers (Infinite Vulcan, e.g.) but a lot of them hold up pretty well, IMHO. Worth the money for the DVDs, certainly.

#88

Good article, casilda. Thanks. I’m okay with Spock and Uhura having a relationship, and think it’s a nice addition to their characters. But it did concern me that she was having an affair with a commanding officer and instructor, and that this was apparently okay in the Starfleet code of conduct. Spock did the right thing assigning her to another ship, and while her ambition and skill certainly merited her being on the Enterprise, it would be understandable for anyone to wonder if their was “another” reason for her getting her job. It’s a shame that that questions is always going to be there now.

The blog you linked to also mentioned Kirk’s meteoric rise from Cadet straight to Captain, and I’m still reeling from that one too. I believe Uhura went straight from Cadet to Lieutenant in this movie, and I don’t know what the ranks were of Chekov or Sulu–but seriously, that was one big plot point to swallow.

Rats, my first post on this movie sounds negative. I really did like it, honestly.

#89

I think old Spock, Kirk, and young Spock came clean with ALL the facts about “real” trek in their AAR. I think Pike ( technicaly) is the hero of the day because his command saved the day (with, without, and despite him) and He and Starfleet made a concious effort to put Kirk in that chair as soon as possible.

But that’s just me loving the movie!

#90

I agree. It it was good writing to make Pike the benevolent father figure who hand picked the best man/ women for the job. That in itself is heroic considering how military bureaucracy usually leads to douche-baggery.
It seemed to me that Spock was on his way to becoming the proverbial douche bag. Spock saw the same qualities in Kirk that Pike saw and respected it. Allowing Kirk to step over him allowed him to keep his human emotions in check and both were the better man for it.
It was great to see the beginning of their friendship. These two would never become friends naturally. Who brokers the deal?..Spock…Brilliant. I guess the old Vulcan saying is true: Only Nixon can go to China.

#91

…oh, too easy, never mind…

#92

Okay, I finally had some time off to see the film this afternoon! For the 3 or 4 people who will bother reading this thread this late, here are my reactions:

  1. Forget phallus-helmeted Vulcans, what’s with the phallus hairstyle that red-headed Ensign/Extra who was always on the bridge in the background was sporting? Distracting, much?

  2. Is it my imagination, or did they redo the stardates so they’re actually years A.D. (or C.E., if you’re P.C.)?

  3. Did you notice all the lens flares in the bridge scenes? Reminded me of the original series… and a little bit of BSG-style verite without using handheld cameras.

  4. At first I thought, why would you build a starship on a planet’s surface, then I realized if they have warp drives, it must be nothing to launch it out of the gravity well, and it beats having to wear spacesuits when you’re building it.

  5. I always thought the Enterprise’s bridge being on the most vulnerable part of the ship was dumb, a situation admirably corrected in BSG. Now they have an actual window?!?! I’m sorry, even transparent aluminum (as a chemist, I could go on about that) can’t be armored enough to be worth the risk.

  6. Pike in a wheelchair was a nice shout out to TOS fans.

  7. I guess Delta Vega was in the same system as Vulcan, since Spock could see Vulcan’s destruction from there.

  8. This was such a good movie it deserved a Star Wars-calibre soundtrack, not a Lost-calibre soundtrack.

  9. I enjoyed all the references to the Laurentian system, since I’ve vacationed many times in the Laurentians.

  10. If all the Katras were destroyed, then more than six billion Vulcans perished, n’est-ce pas?

  11. Soemthing I don’t understand: in TOS, it’s established that no Federation citizens had seen Romulans and discovered their similarity to Vulcans until Kirk et al. encounter Mark Lenard well into their five-year mission. Yet in the movie, they seem to recognize Romulans no problem, and Spock casually mentions their common ancestry. Is this one of those butterfly-wing effects of the timeline being changed?

  12. I don’t think you can have it both ways. If time travel causes a fork in the timeline, then every Trek episode that has featured time travel has done the same. There are lots of Trek universes out there!

  13. Traveling in time by going through a black hole? What’s next, traveling in time by going really fast around the sun?

#93

damn, I suck… can’t believe that got passed the proof read. Who am I kidding… I don’t proof read!

The Star Trek universe is big enough to cater for all tastes and moods. Some days I want to see Picard’s ships superior technology, most days I want to see Kirk having a fist fight with a reptile man.

On very few days do I want to see Janeway scowl her way out of a problem, but I get a strange thrill from seeing Sisko shouting and shooting his way out of a problem. I have no comment on Captain Archer as I never manage to get through the Enterprise theme music with out throwing something at the television. ( lol! I really like a lot of Enterprise… I am just talking SH&T!)

#94

Preposterous! :smiley:

#95

hey all,

I’ve just watched last night. Here are some thoughts:

[ul]
[li]The Enterprise DIDN’T get destroyed, but the USS Kelvin (USS stands for “United States Starship” right? NOT federation.) This makes sense since this movie is about Kirk & Spock’s first outing on the Enterprise.
[/li][li]The Black hole is a plot device. It’s JJ Abram’s way of saying to the hardcore fans to just chill out and let him tell his story. I also note that JJ Abrams was VERY, very interested to work in BSG but got pretty much stonewalled by RDM. Thus, I’m very happy for JJ Abram’s success (in terms of cinematically & box office monies) that this Star Trek movie is his vindication; his shot at making his own re-imagining. It’s karma, baby!
[/li][li]JJ Abrams’ broke the 5th wall with that “ball of Red matter” from Alias. I also note that the chick who played “Meghan” in felicity, and a minor character in Alias, also had a 2 second shot in the movie.
[/li][li]Leonard Nimoy as Spock made his signature breaking-the-space-time-continumm gag by giving an advanced formula to Scotty. He did that in IV where he gave a formula for transparent plastic (?) to a manufacturer to build a giant tub for the whale.
[/li][li]I think Spock’s advanced, spinning dreidel ship is also a nod to BSG. It rocks.
[/li][li]Does anyone notice that the warp speed on these early starship seem to be faster than in the older Trek movies?
[/li][li]Did Eric Bana put on weight for this movie? He had fat cheeks! I totally didn’t recognise from the Delta force soldier in Black Hawk down.
[/li][li]Khaan!
[/li][/ul]

#96

Both BrokenCosmos and I have been listening to the audiobook based on the movie. It has some minor variations, but does a nice job of clearing some stuff up.

The crew didn’t just jump in from cadet to officer, they were about to graduate (like Officers Candidate School?) into their subsequent jobs as starship officers. Their rank is real and earned.

No matter how worried Spock might be that her posting might be viewed as favoritism, I believe his idea of discretion waaaay superpasses the human concept. He really had nothing to worry about- he’s no dead giveaway- Uhura is, though. In the book, only Kirk and Bones noticed any lingering glances having to do with their own skills and predilections.

The ‘canyon’ was a quarry. And the classic corvette was Kirk’s dad’s. The guy he passes on the road was his elder brother George, who was just leaving home cause he could no longer put up with the jerky stepdad, voiced by Greg Grunberg. And in the book, the cop was human with a robotic faceplate, though he seemed androidish in the movie.

I prefer the Spock on Spock interplay in the movie. The book, though beautifully voiced by Mr. Quinto, had slower pacing with too much spoon-feeding exposition. (GR, where are you?! this is ripe for IYKWIMing!)

Excellent movie. Excellent book. Good soundtrack.

THUMBS UP!

#97

I keep hearing lots of people say that The Original Series Enterprise was originally built in space, as opposed to the new Star Trek Enterprise being built in Iowa. But the only Enterprise I ever remember learning was for sure built in space was the Enterprise-D from The Next Generation, having been built at the Utopia Planitia Shipyards orbiting Mars. I don’t think it was ever extablished for certain where any of the previous Enterprises had been built, in cannon anyway, maybe in the books. But I have ALWAYS thought that The Original Series Enterprise had been built on Earth, albeit closer to Starfleet Headquarters in San Francisco, but out in the sticks kind of makes more sense. I guess I got this from The Original Series bridge plaque which says “Starship Class” and makes reference to San Francisco, but that could just be where the ship was commissioned from. In any case, I like it being built on Earth, but really wish we’d gotten to witness it being moved into orbit. Is that addressed in the book version?

#98

They may have been given an early graduation, but they would have been made Ensigns or O-1 rank. Since Chekov was already an Ensign with time in rank, Chekov outranked Kirk and Uhura. A captain of a heavy crusier would probably be an O-5 or O-6.

So when Pike promoted Kirk to be Spock’s first officer, he was telling the rest of his crew that no other officer on the ship that had been through the Academy and had spent months or years on the ship doing their jobs weren’t as good as the kid that just got his diploma. That would mean Pike had some very incompetant officers on his ship.

#99

Yes, it was the Kelvin that was destroyed. The USS has been retconned (sorta, it was never stated that it was “U.S. Ship”) into "United (F of P) StarShip early on in the original series. So, it would have been a relatively early UFP ship.

Leonard Nimoy as Spock made his signature breaking-the-space-time-continumm gag by giving an advanced formula to Scotty. He did that in IV where he gave a formula for transparent plastic (?) to a manufacturer to build a giant tub for the whale.

I believe that was Scotty, so Spock is using his own idea here.

I think Spock’s advanced, spinning dreidel ship is also a nod to BSG. It rocks.

The GF thinks it’s a nod to the ion propulsion ship from “Spock’s Brain.” I’ll need to revisit that one.

#100

I would argue that in crisis/emergency situations it’s Captain’s prerogative to promote or assign officers in the field (Picard did this, albeit not in an emergency situation, with Wesley making him an Ensign, and Janeway did this with the Maquis that became part of her crew by making them provisional officers). Provisional officers are not uncommon in the Star Trek universe. And jump-step promotions are not uncommon in today’s military. Also, Pike struck me as a Captain who recognized exceptional talent and potential. If he could find someone on the crew who could do a job better than you, then he would seem to be the kind of person to make changes, i.e. having Cadet Uhura relieve the Lt. at the communications station based on the fact that she knew Romulan and the Lt. didn’t. Why else would he have a 17 year old bridge officer on the Flag ship of the Federation (Chekov) who is basically a computer genius even for that time.
And, Nero destroyed a good chunk of Federation ships, so there are probably a lot of promotions to go around for new ships that need senior officers. And Starfleet might not be willing to break up the Bridge crew that saved the universe when the odds were stacked against them and the likelihood of success was bleak, especially on the recommendation of Admiral Pike.

It is also possible that you could graduate from the Academy with a rank higher than Ensign based on performance and commendations. And just because you have been out of the academy longer and have a higher rank doesn’t mean you would be a better officer than the next guy or gal.

The only person who should have had a beef is Ensign Kim. There is no way he should have stayed an Ensign for seven years. (he did get a jumpstep promotion in the Voyager relaunch books)