GWC Podcast #152: BSG 4.5 Deadlock

Podcasts Galactic Watercooler
#61

That’s how I see it. Between listening to the Ron Moore podcasts and watching the episodes and such, I’ve been interpreting it as Ellen fundamentally wanting Tigh all to herself. She has pride in her creations–remember her “I love you because I made you” to Cavil? That probably counts a lot for her behavior towards him and Boomer, that kind of narcissistic love. That and wanting to get the hell out of there:p

Discussing it with my husband, we decided that while they might have some fake memories, the essential personality is the same. Look at Boomer and the rest of the Eights: all are emotional and kind of weird. Boomer’s difference was more a result of her post-sleeper agent differences rather than her fake memories (IMO). So Ellen would still be petty and spiteful when faced with a situation that she feels as threatening and lashes out like we saw her do back in the day. Except this time, she intentionally/unintentionally/whatever made Caprica lose the baby while trying to get back at Tigh because she was being short-sighted. I’m pretty interested in seeing the consequences of this, personally, both from Tigh, Caprica, and all the rest of the Cylons once they discover that their one of the Five killed possibly the first Cylon/Cylon baby since Earth.

And because it may or may not be amusing, here’s something from the recap/review I wrote on my blog:

But yeah, this episode was simultaneously amusing, awkward, and painful. “Like Mom and Dad making out”… yeah. More like “Mom and Dad making out and then Mom finds out that Dad knocked up one of the kids, and also your big brother Galen is being kind of a douche and is happy because his ex-girlfriend Other Sister came back. Oh, and Uncle Adama is drinking himself blind. Happy birthday!”

Also, hi! I’ve been lurking here for a few weeks and registered so I’d have people to talk to while I’m at work.

#62

Exactly! Thank you, Phil!

I agree that Ellen was lovely when she had Tigh away from Galactica (=Adama) on New Craprica. I’m certain it was in that ‘G-free’ year that they became so close to Starbuck. Remember how surprising that interplay was? Wow.

I now think that Starbuck is Daniel’s daughter, which still makes her a ‘descendant’ of Ellen and Tigh. I was convinced she was their daughter, and I don’t feel far off with that if Ellen considers the skinjobs her children.

Even though Ellen says ‘poisonous’ things. She would still sacrifice herself for Tigh. It seems to be her cycle. She is always willing to die for him. Even if she resents that she has to.

Oh, and seeing this cracked me up with its “Shining” reference in the cast! lol!

#63

LOL! Very amusing indeed, Sithwitch. And disturbingly accurate.

#64

LOL!

More like Grandma and Grandpa making out!

#65

UD: I LOVE your funeral pie siggy!!

I can’t believe I didn’t see this before - you’re right; the fight in Dogville could have been the practical reason, but we may never know.

Awesome theory! I had forgotten that the last cylon conception also began in deceit and ended up in true love.

Yes! Especially Ellen; she is the ultimate petty, jealous, interfering goddess. Good call.

Haha, thanks, all for the compliments. :cool:

Interesting point re: the narcissistic love. And I agree with your theory about the essential personalities - I think when Ellen says “I’m still Ellen” she means it - the personality is the same, just with the regained consciousness of her true self.

I would love to find out that Starbuck is really related to Tigh and/or Ellen! Your theory is really holding on here!

Re: the Onion article - BWAHAHAHAHA!!! I loves mai kitteh.

#66

Re-listening now and things are making more sense this time, i.e. trying Boomer for treason. She’s a traitor to the Cylons for staying with Cavil, not the Fleet.

  1. As far a Starbuck’s father, he was a musician. If Starbuck did resurrect, her hands would have healed and she might now play the piano.

  2. If it takes true love for a Cylon to procreate, Ellen and Saul should have had a child by now as they truly did love each other. I don’t believe that it was Saul’s feelings for Adama that kept them from having a child this time around.

  3. Really like the idea of Liam resurrecting in Ander’s body. That could really be freaky…is he a child in an adult body or possibly Daniel returning in Ander’s body?

  4. Yes, Ellen meant she knew Saul had learned some new moves from someone else. She was upset that it was Caprica and then the baby really turned on the crazy.

Strange how Ellen was so calm and collected, then totally loses it as soon as she’s back with Saul. Maybe alcohol fueled crazy love keeps them from breeding.

Finally, what did the 5 use for genetic base material for the 8 human replicants? Are they based on real people like John Cavil or are they complete constructs? That info could be important.

#67

After so many podcasts about it, I finally bought Mass Effect (only $19.99!) yesterday.

And in honour of Audra, I’m starting off with a female character named… Fifi Shepard!

(#@$% took me a while to find the darn captain’s office…)

#68

The weakest elements in season 4.0 and 4.5 seem to come from the fact that they’re having to fit a lot of plot in only a few episodes, and can’t devote the screen time to flesh out things the audience must just take on faith.

Chief among this is the characters’ motivations. They did a good job on removing Tyrol’s attachments to humanity (Cally, Nicky), then had him come through in the clutch by singlehandedly saving Galactica from the mutiny. So… he’s done a turnaround, right? His heart is back in the fleet. This seems to be underlined by his accepting re-promotion to Chief.

And then in this episode, he suddenly wants to take off with the Cylons and leave humanity behind! Where did that come from? Maybe he was affected by Anders’s revelations, but we didn’t get to see his mental journey.

And then there’s Ellen. Talk about two quick 180-degree turns of personality! It might have been less jarring if she’d slowly (say over 10 minutes instead of 10 seconds) reverted to type.

I think the show is just too pressed for time to devote the screen time necessary to making these motivational shifts less abrupt.

Well, as far as weaknesses go, BSG still beats every other series hands down. One can’t have everything.

#69

And another bit of motivational shift that happened entirely off-camera is Tigh falling in love with Caprica Six. We’re just supposed to take it as a fact, when all they actually showed us is Tigh seeing Ellen’s face when he looked at her. Which would seem to support the theory that it’s Ellen he really loves… but nope, next thing we see, they’re all cuddly in front of the ultrasound.

#70

As soon as I finished watching this episode I immediately took Liam’s death to mean that Cylons actually can’t conceive healthy children together and it didn’t have anything to do with Ellen’s actions, because I figured that was the entire point of this episode and how the Final Five taking a vote about whether they’ll stay was directly related to it. But listening to the cast and reading some comments has gotten me thinking about it more, and I guess there might be something more to it because it sounds like they’ve never found any scientific explanation for why Cylons shouldn’t be able to have children together.

What I thought was especially strange was how the baby died right after Ellen was telling Six that she and Tigh could stay there and the other Cylons would leave and then Tigh looked at her seeming very surprised. Then when the baby died he said “No, that was me. I take it back” as if he was thinking something in that moment that he thinks must have made it his fault (I would guess that he didn’t like that idea because no matter what Ellen thinks he wouldn’t want to lose her to be with Caprica). But if I had to make a theory I’d say it was probably Ellen’s decision that the rest of the Cylons will still leave that killed the baby. Maybe loving their own kind is not enough and the authority upstairs has made it so that only by staying together and accepting each other can the humans and Cylons procreate and survive. Which kind of goes back to how I initially interpreted the whole purpose in the story of Six losing her baby but is just a different way of looking at it.

#71

I think Simon was interested in breeding because he was programmed to be a doctor and that would be of interest to him. Also, since there were only 7 models, breeding would increase that number and who knows what a hybrid might have been capable of.

#72

I thought the episode showed pretty clearly that at the time of the assault she was already getting pains and was worried something might be wrong, because immediately following that scene we see her getting checked out by Cottle like that’s where she was headed next, but I could be wrong.

#73

I don’t think that the child was meant to be…
Just my 2 cents.

#74

Come back any time, there’s always somebody here geeking away.

#75

Welcome aboard Sithwitch.

#76

After it was revealed that Saul Tigh was a cylon, I believed Starbuck was Saul’s daughter. Then after we found out Ellen was a cylon, I believed Starbuck was Saul & Ellen’s daughter. Now I think Starbuck is Daniel’s daughter. But I still really like the idea of Saul Tigh being Starbuck’s father.

#77

Yes, that struck me too when I heard that.

#78

Yes, I totally agree.

#79

I was totally singing “Guy Love” all during this episode before I heard the podcast.

Um.

Does that mean the next half-human/half-cylon baby will be Adama’s and Tigh’s??? :eek::eek::eek::eek:

#80

Great theory. Although, one wonders, if their mutual love is so strong, why haven’t the physical Baltar and Six shown any interest in each other since Caprica?

Finally the role of love. Maybe if two people truly love each other, they can break off a piece of their ‘souls’ and transfer them to the baby.

I can see that. It seems like Ellen had a plan for the Cylons to transcend their programming; feeling – and expressing – genuine love would certainly accomplish that.

Yep, great flick. In fact, I even forgot about the sci fi aspect of it until Chuck mentioned it. I’m thinking it deserves a frak party. :slight_smile:

My take on the baby-love connection is that Tigh loved Ellen, even after her (permanent, from his point of view at the time) death. His newfound ability to project allowed him to grow to love Caprica Six in her place, thereby allowing the conception of a child. With Ellen dead, his love was unconflicted. As soon as discovered she was still alive, that was no longer true. The ensuing confusion about whom he really loved caused whatever force sustained the purebred Cylon fetus to falter. :frowning:

What I’m curious about is that should the final five decide to recreate download-ibility again, could they enable humans to download as well as the cylons (thus effectively removing almost any distinction between the two species - other than cylons being super strong)?

Resurrection with unlimited reproduction would be untenable in the long run. It really needs to be one or the other, but not both.

ETA: Oh, and I actually quite like how crazy and emotional Ellen became after the level headed one we saw last week. It goes to show just how petty and human cylons are. It kind of reminds me of the Greek Gods. Gods? Yes. Petty and jealous? Also yes.

Excellent point!

Who knows what kind of tinkering Cavil has done on his fellow Cylons? The petulant child we saw in the last episode certainly would do whatever he could to quash Ellen’s goals.

I can’t recall who said it where, but I think it’s been theorized that Daniel’s story won’t be a part of this series but could be meant only to set up The Plan.