GWC Podcast #151: BSG 4.5 No Exit

[NothingButheRain]

Also, on the whole Adama taking pills thing. Does anyone here know anyone about Adama’s age that does not require pills on a daily basis? I think it is just paralleling that Adama and Galactica are so tied together and they are both having aging issues. He is now coming to terms with the fact that he has to take drugs to help out and so does Galactica.

This makes alot of sense, but I still think Adama is ill, a heart condition or something.

[NothingButheRain]

What’s odd is that in BSG the human form “signs” did not show up until after the destruction of The Colonies. So, if they are warnings, it’s about something other than a Cylon surprise attack.

This also struck me, but warnings about what? Everyone’s propensity to continue the cycle of, “This has happened before. This will happen again” ?

[NothingButheRain]

As the previews for next week’s ep show, it appears that Boomer and Ellen both make it to Galactica. Two questions come to my mind:

How will Chief react to seeing Boomer, given the emotional/intellectual journey that the he’s gone through in the past year?

How will Ellen react to the Tigh/Six union, and their unborn child?

I think one of the over-arching themes of the show has been that we can only be redeemed when we love, and are loved in return without reservation. The 8’s seem to need to be loved very intensely. Can Boomer be saved by renewing her relationship with the Chief? Is there enough love/maturity/understanding for a Tigh-Six-Ellen relationship, where they can all co-exist?

Since it’s this show, I’d say bad things are going to happen.

Thank you, you put this so nicely.

I’ve been waiting since the Season 1 for Boomer to return to the Chief somehow. I thought maybe on New Caprica, but things went to hell so quickly there. Well, I’m looking forward to see how the two react to each other. They have both changed.

Ellen+Caprica Six+Tigh
I’m hoping the love will win out. More exciting times ahead.

Welcome to the Forum Lew Zeeland

[Phil]

Concerning potential fireworks when Ellen see’s Caprica6 pregnant with Tigh’s baby, I think people are right that this Ellen will be much more understanding. However, I could see it getting dicey if, as John Cavil was based on Ellen’s father, what if 6 was based on Ellen and Tigh’s daughter back on Earth? That could be a little unsettling, though explain how Tigh could see so much of Ellen in 6…

Also, I’d cut Chuck some slack for misremembering where the holocaust occurred in the original series, because by about the third episode the attack on the Colonies did seem like a distant memory…

[NothingButheRain]

Thank you! I just left a rant on the GWC switchboard because I swear it’s obvious (aparently only to me) that Starbuck IS Daniel. She’s the artist but most important clue to me is she was the most contriversial character of the mini-series because the Starbuck role used to be a man and now is a woman. Plus she’s the one diging for the information about the seven from Anders. My theory, Anders saved the Daniel line by changing the gender and hiding her with Socreta (sp?). What makes her “special” is that she can resurect without a ship - She can use the building blocks of life from a supernova and recreate herself (and even her ship!). I might be completely off base about all the particulars surrounding the how’s and why’s but at the core, Starbuck is Daniel.

I like your idea.

I can’t decide whether I believe Starbuck is Daniel, or the daughter of Daniel and Ellen. I think Starbuck was given to Socrata to raise (why I don’t know).

[NothingButheRain]

And if ever an episode deserved the 8-hour podcast this is it!

Great podcast GWC !!
YES, yes. I was hoping for at least a 2-hr session. Love the flow of these ideas.
What an episode.

[Old_Timer]

This also struck me, but warnings about what? Everyone’s propensity to continue the cycle of, “This has happened before. This will happen again” ?

I’m baffled. Most of what we have heard comes from Head 6 - and she preaches mostly the religion of a one, true God. I guess there is an implicit warning in there, that following some other path (false gods) will lead to “trouble” - but that’s all I can come up with - and it’s pretty weak.

[NothingButheRain]

I think Daniel is Kara’s Father. Due to the changes made my John Cavil, the Daniel line was destroyed. I don’t think the discussion between Cavil and Ellen about the Daniel’s can conclude that it is impossible that one could have escaped or been unaccounted for before the ‘boxing’. The discussion leads me to believe that a few Daniel’s were created before John Cavil sabotaged the mass production line and he believes he killed them all.

I still vacillate between thinking Starbuck is Daniel and Starbuck is Daniel’s daughter. I too think one of the F5 saved a few Daniels.

Welcome to the Forum Kardus.

[NothingButheRain]

Ultimately, I think this is one of the over arching messages of the show. You can’t wash your hands of the things that you have done. You will, ultimately, be held responsible for them.

I have about as much sympathy for Cavil as I do for any criminal in jail right now blaming their actions on their parents. Just because someone/something created you does not mean you are not responsible for the things that you do.

I completely agree!
Right off the bat, in the mini-series, in his speech during the de-commissioning ceremony of the Galactica, Adama says this. We are all responsible for the things we have done. This is a recurring theme.

[NothingButheRain]

Is anyone “worried” that Boomer’s loyalties may not have actually switched? Remember throughout the episode, Cavil seems to find it important that she spend time with Ellen. This wouldn’t be Cavil trying to endear Ellen to her and gain her trust such that she leads them back to the fleet would it?

The Pollyanna in me wants to see Boomer and the Chief happy again too, but I’ve soaked in BSG darkness too long not to wonder if this couldn’t be a RDM twist in the making…

IKWYM, but I gotta believe Boomer is fed up with Cavil’s madness. I gotta believe Boomer misses her life on Galactica. Not that she could really have that back again, but I believe somewhere she still loves the Chief, and that love is the transformative agent.

Welcome to the Forum BSGinNC.

[sircastor]

I still vacillate between thinking Starbuck is Daniel and Starbuck is Daniel’s daughter. I too think one of the F5 saved a few Daniels.

Welcome to the Forum Kardus.

I think a few is too many. I think at best it was just one. I’m leaning quite a bit towards the “Starbuck’s Dad was Daniel” but then again, it leads to the larger question of how long and why were the 8 skinjob cylons on Earth?

I get the impression that The infiltration of Earth happened post-daniel-killed/post-Final-five-memory-wiped. Essentially that Cavil puts a plan into motion and that leads to the Cylon Infiltration and Attack of the colonies.

So either the skinjobs were on Earth Already and Cavil changed it to an attack type thing, or Daniel was there for some other reason

Or Daniel is not Starbuck’s father at all, and there’s no relation there anyway.

[Old_Timer]

I still vacillate between thinking Starbuck is Daniel and Starbuck is Daniel’s daughter. I too think one of the F5 saved a few Daniels.

Welcome to the Forum Kardus.

Boy, Ellen was pretty adamant that Cavil destroyed the line.

And I keep coming back to this - Daniel cannot have been Starbuck’s father because that would make Hera totally irrelevant.

[NothingButheRain]

Concerning potential fireworks when Ellen see’s Caprica6 pregnant with Tigh’s baby, I think people are right that this Ellen will be much more understanding. However, I could see it getting dicey if, as John Cavil was based on Ellen’s father, what if 6 was based on Ellen and Tigh’s daughter back on Earth? That could be a little unsettling, though explain how Tigh could see so much of Ellen in 6…

You’re right, that is unsettling, and a bit creepy.

[sircastor]

Boy, Ellen was pretty adamant that Cavil destroyed the line.

And I keep coming back to this - Daniel cannot have been Starbuck’s father because that would make Hera totally irrelevant.

Only if The significant seven knew about it. If for instance, That Daniel was unknown to Cavil, or if the child was hidden (this is beginning to sound like star wars), then the Cylons wouldn’t know about it (her) and the significance of the procreation would be hidden.

If a 7 was on Earth (a big if) and sired Kara, then it’s an anomaly as the Cylons hadn’t begun to infiltrate earth yet. From what we got out of Cavil and Ellen in “No Exit”, it’s Cavil that initiated the attack against Earth…

[missmuffet]

Boy, Ellen was pretty adamant that Cavil destroyed the line.

And I keep coming back to this - Daniel cannot have been Starbuck’s father because that would make Hera totally irrelevant.

the only thing I can think of with regard to Hera being rendered irrelevant is that perhaps literally no one knows that Kara is half cylon.

And even then - it’s possible that Hera’s specialness is less about her being half cylon, half human - and more about her being the product of two people who started out at enemies. They overcame the rift between the two races and produced a child. She’s symbolic of the possibility that cylons and humans can coexist and even merge together and become one people. If Kara is half cylon it’s my bet that her mother was not aware that her father was a cylon.

[Old_Timer]

the only thing I can think of with regard to Hera being rendered irrelevant is that perhaps literally no one knows that Kara is half cylon.

And even then - it’s possible that Hera’s specialness is less about her being half cylon, half human - and more about her being the product of two people who started out at enemies. They overcame the rift between the two races and produced a child. She’s symbolic of the possibility that cylons and humans can coexist and even merge together and become one people. If Kara is half cylon it’s my bet that her mother was not aware that her father was a cylon.

My sense - invariavbly incorrect - is that this all gets things too complicated as the show wraps up. It’s time for resolutions, not additional mysteries.

So, I’ll stick with:

1. Daniel is kaput.

2. Kara is not the first human/Cylon hybrid. (But she is the first “reborn” human)

3. Hera is the first human/Cylon hybrid -and as such she presents a significant threat to the Cavil S7/8 faction. Cavil has no interest in the all too human process of natural procreation. He wants immortality, etc.

4. Hera’s survival may be what can break the cycle.

[missmuffet]

My sense - invariavbly incorrect - is that this all gets things too complicated as the show wraps up. It’s time for resolutions, not additional mysteries.

So, I’ll stick with:

1. Daniel is kaput.

2. Kara is not the first human/Cylon hybrid. (But she is the first “reborn” human)

3. Hera is the first human/Cylon hybrid -and as such she presents a significant threat to the Cavil S7/8 faction. Cavil has no interest in the all too human process of natural procreation. He wants immortality, etc.

4. Hera’s survival may be what can break the cycle.

I actually tend to agree with you on the Daniel being kaput - I think that RDM is tying up loose ends and the numbering mistake is certainly one of those. I was really just throwing an idea out there.

[sircastor]

I actually tend to agree with you on the Daniel being kaput - I think that RDM is tying up loose ends and the numbering mistake is certainly one of those. I was really just throwing an idea out there.

I’m leaning skeptical because of that fact, but I didn’t think we’d get new mysteries at the start of 4.5, but we found that the 13th tribe was cylons, made their own cylons. I don’t think we’re safe from “new mysteries” until the final episode… maybe even only the last hour.

[turing_cop]

Ok so how does the travel from erf to the colonies work? How are they not able to age?
HELP!!

Hi,

It’s relativity. According to the theory of relativity time does not flow uniformly - it all depends on your frame of reference. As you approach the speed of light thistime dilation effect becomes very significant. So a few years could have passed on on the subliminal space craft while thousands of years pass on Earth or the 12 colonies.

Fantastic episode - though - how good can this get?

[LisaSLC]

My mind is spinning faster after reading all of the great posts in this thread.

Here’s something that came to mind when I was listening to the podcast: If Cavil has always been his warm, cheery self - from the beginning, when he was created - why didn’t the FF just box him?? He was certainly causing trouble from the beginning, destroying Daniel and all.

I mean, if the FF are the Skin Jobs “creators”, then don’t they have the ability to silence them as well. Or, does that go against their views of life, death, etc.?

And I wonder…if Cavil needs Ellen, and, per Ellen, the rest of the FF to rebuild the Hub, then why was he so against finding the FF? I realize Cavil already knew who they were, but he could have either shared the information or played along. Or, is he just giving Ellen lip service, and he really does not want the Hub rebuilt? For the record, I do think he wants it rebuilt, because to cease to exist would be inferior for him, too human.

I’m probably thinking about this too much. Oh well.
Cheers all.