I think this episode (obviously) revealed a lot, and one of those key points is that though Ellen and Cavil are placed in the same role, they are very different people. Ellen and the other 5 probably had the ability to stop and destroy the Skin Jobs, but it violates what they were doing. They were developing life on behalf of and in conjunction with the Cylons. To step out of that, to shut off the line would be a violation of their trust (of the 12c Cylons). I think Ellen’s attitude of a creator is very apparent in this episode. She clearly does love John Cavil, even if he loathes her. Even if he was self-destructive and destructive to others, Ellen would love him because she is in essence his Mother.
I don’t think that Cavil started out being what he is now. What he is now is generations (granted, rather quick generations) of development. Giving to the Cain/Abel comparison, he clearly was jealous of Daniel. He also at some point became aware of his physical limitations. He certainly wasn’t given a more fit body like Simon or Leoben, let alone the physical possibilities of the Human-type body.
I think that somewhere along the line he abandoned his Humanity for Machin-ity (better word anyone?)
IF, I am remembering the RDM podcast correctly I believe he mentioned something about Daniel being important to the series Caprica.
With that in mind, maybe Kara is not Daniel’s daughter, but rather a Cylon that he created that no one else knows about. Maybe Kara’s recollections are simply programing like Boomer’s or maybe Kara was created as a child and grew (which would suggest that Cavil and the others can age).
In this same line of thought, maybe Daniel created Kara while carrying out some sort of plan conceived by the final five (maybe as some sort of back-up should things go awry).
I agree, I don’t think Cavil was always this bad. Although, the idea that he boxed the Seven line gives me the impression that his trait as a cylon is jealousy. I once thought it was greed, but I think his greed is a direct result of being jealous of everything he sees and can’t be.
As for Kara being Half Cylon, there are really only three possibilities.
She is not a descendant of the Seven Line and we can deduce that there is the possibility that humans have the capability to resurrect. I don’t like this idea, it raises too many questions that are going to be harder to explain then the rest and it really feels like a cop out for the human race (God Mode?) and their ability to survive.
She is not a descendant of the Seven Line and we can deduce that the Twelve Colonies are direct descendants of the Thirteenth Cylon colony. This is much more likely then option 1, in my opinion. This would make all of the 12 colonies Cylon skin jobs and would also put them at about the same point in time when the Apocolypse happens as when it happened with the 13th colony. This would be rather ironic that the FF, while trying to stop the cycle, actually end up causing it in the end.
Kara IS the child of the only surviving Seven. I find it much more likely that an artistic and free thinking Daniel was able to talk or romance his way on to Kara’s mother’s ship before Cavil destroyed the rest of his line and started a life for himself and father Kara. At this point, her mother or any other pilot wouldn’t have suspected him of being a cylon, since Skinjobs weren’t known to exist yet. Perhaps after the realization of what he was able to do (have a child with a human) scared him or maybe he realized that if he was found, what might happen to his daughter, forced him into hiding. He would have known he was a Cylon from the begining and Cylons weren’t supposed to be able to have children.
I know Option 3 is a little bit of a stretch, but I still like it. I would favor 2 and 3 before 1 though.
RDM stated on the episode commentary that Daniel figures into the BSG and Caprica stories. I’ve been avoiding anything on Caprica so as to not be spoiled when the pilot airs, but I looked it up on IMDB and saw a Daniel as a main character…then I quickly paged back out of there so I wouldn’t see anything else.
Assuming other Cylon models besides the Ones might have been designed in the image of other people, I think maybe the Sevens were named after the Daniel we’ll see in Caprica.
I feel like bringing up how this episode was likely named after Sartre’s “No Exit.” I know the basic ideas of Sartre’s philosophy are about how all morality is subjective, which was exactly what I was reminded of when Ellen said that line “He did what he thought was right. That’s all any man can do.” And interestingly, Cavil responds to this by pointing out “He’s not a man,” as if that makes that idea irrelevant. Why should we feel sorry for Cavil even if Ellen can’t truthfully say she loves him unconditionally? In his mind, things like love and right or wrong are irrelevant to creations like them.
It strikes me as especially Sartre-esque that Cavil is kind of portrayed as the “bad guy” in the dysfunctional Cylon family, because with how I took it it’s not because he won’t accept God or whatever, but because he won’t accept responsibility for his inability to subscribe to Ellen’s ideas. Existentialism denies the existence of “human nature” and therefore says it makes no sense for people to say “It’s not my fault I’m inclined to sin because God made me this way.” According to Sartre’s ideas, it wouldn’t be wrong for Cavil to say “I’ve killed people because it was what I thought was right in those situations” but it is for him to say “If I’ve done wrong it’s because you made me that way.” He may have every right to be frustrated about the way he was made, but he made the choice to destroy Daniel’s production line and torment the Five like he did, and he can’t blame that on his creators.
I believe Ellen really does love him as her son, and that’s why she made him this way and she wants him to accept himself this way instead of want to be different. Without the free will to choose to be good, being good doesn’t mean anything, so that’s why she gave him that. The Five obviously wanted to create children to love, not genius appliances, which is completely understandable since all Cylons on Earth by that time were very human-like. If she accepts that he is “Cavil” the machine trapped in a weak human body, not “John her boy” who she believes is fine the way he was made, then that’s accepting him as someone who hates himself when she sees plenty in him to love. That still wouldn’t make him any happier about his existence. His determination to make her admit she’s wrong is completely unproductive and pointless, with no purpose but to make others suffer as much as he has to.
We need not get our panties into a twist every time “God” is mentioned on the show. It doesn’t make any difference whether Ellen is trying to make Cavil believe in God or Buddha or the basic Golden Rule because his complete rejection of it would be the same no matter what. Ron Moore probably chose for the Cylons’ religious beliefs to reflect Judeo-Christian ones because it fits the way the first Christian people in real life were formerly slaves in an oppressive Greek society. The Centurions probably started worshiping a “one true God” to counter the humans’ religion because their monotheism teaches that all creations are equal and loved by God while Greek polytheism doesn’t have that kind of focus on equality (and clearly it affects Colonial society - see “Dirty Hands”). The fact that this didn’t just make them able to see themselves as forms of life that should be respected but also kept them from wanting vengeance against the human race seems to make it a less hypocritical faith than many have historically been in the real world, especially since we know now that the holocaust was all caused by Cavil’s influence and has practically just been disguised as a religious war. (Though this surprised and kind of disappointed me and I wonder if there’s more to it.)
And while I’m talking about Centurions, I really really liked that moment with one of them helping Ellen out of her goo tub in the beginning because it was so telling and made me feel kind of sorry for the chrome jobs. When the Centurion reaches for her, it has its hand positioned the wrong way to take her hand at first and then turns it, like it doesn’t really know how to help someone get up because this is new to it. The Centurions can be gentle and kind but all they’ve ever been used for is shooting things so they’re kind of awkward about it.
The main point of my earlier post was this: I think the “head messengers” who warned of the holocaust on earth, and who have appeared in the heads of Baltar, Caprica 6, and probably Starbuck, are actually there to bring about the cycle. For some reason, they’re trying to bring things full circle so that the cycle will begin again.
So IMO the FF are being used. They intended to stop the human/cylon war, but they ended up escalating it. Unintended for them, but fully intended by the “head messengers” who led them down that path. Didn’t Head Six tell Baltar way back in season 2 that she intended to bring about the end of the human race?
Quick question for the hive mind. What does Ellen say to Boomer just before she is taken out of her room? It is something like “You should have brought a tumbrall,… never mind”
Ok, and here’s a very old question. Who or what is Head-6, or head-Baltar? Are they real, are they from the sub-conscious, are messengers? Why did Tigh see Ellen when looking at Caprica-6? Simply because he yearned for Ellen? Or was there more to it?
And another old question, for which I have never heard a satisfactory explanation is, how the hell did Baltar survive the blast when it killed Caprica Six? When she was resurrected, she was certainly surprised to hear Baltar had survived.
Man, I don’t know what to think. Everything you say sounds plausible.
So re #2. What did Leoben mean when he and Starbuck found her Viper and her remains, and he said “You aren’t who I thought you were”, or words to that effect.
Yes, and Head-6 says she is a “messenger of God. I am here to guide and protect you,” or words to that effect. Yes, but how is it that these “head-people” are seen or projected?
I agree that it wouldn’t make him happier, but that’s because she’s still overwriting something onto it. She’s still thinking that he is wrong to hate himself. But if she really loves him for what he is, as a machine who truly does hate himself… well, maybe it would make him feel better to be loved, just for what he is. Or maybe she could find some other way to help him, such as supporting him in his quest to become more machine-like – bringing the mountain to Mohammed, as it were.
Instead, she keeps insisting that he must define his identity differently in order to be loved. Why? If she can believe that he is fine the way he was made, why can’t she believe that he is fine the way he is? Existentialism says that’s her problem, not his…
But her own determination to make him admit he’s wrong is…? It certainly looks to me as if he’s suffering for it. And it’s important to note that existentialism itself is not a universal moral value; Sartre was quick to point this out, mainly because the whole thing collapses if each and every person is not free to ignore it! Cavil doesn’t necessarily have to accept existentialist values; he can choose some other value system (and he certainly seems to have done so; guess you could call it machineism).
If the point of existentialism is to deny the existence of “human nature” and champion personal responsibility, then how can an existentialist Ellen claim that “humanity” means Cavil is wrong to strive to be a better machine? Personal responsibility for your choices is only part of existentialism; the power to make those choices is in there, too. Cavil has the right to decide to try to be a better machine rather than a better human, if he wants to. He does not have to be “John her boy” in order to be happy; that’s certainly not the only thing in the world he’s capable of accepting himself as! He can be his own person/machine, and find his happiness in that.
I agree 100% that existentialism (and basic maturity, and the interests of his own peace of mind!) suggests that Cavil should accept responsibility for his own actions, but the idea that he needs to accept them Ellen’s way – no. Her insistence that he accept himself as what she wants him to be is hurting him and pushing him away, which only makes him less likely to accept himself at all.
Again, if we’re getting existentialist, then that complete rejection is Cavil’s right. He does not have to be religious in order to accept himself, nor does he have to follow the Golden Rule, and Ellen’s insistence on his belief is not helping him. He is much less likely to accept himself if he thinks that acceptance involves forcing himself to believe something which deeply offends him.
She means a “tumbrel”. It’s a cart you use to carry the accused to an execution.
One recurring subject in the show is Baltar’s natural instinct for survival. When things get tough, he always ends up doing what he has to in order to keep out of danger.
I wonder if this is something that has ‘happened before’. Is it likely that Baltar might be yet another original Cylon that perhaps played a similar role with the destruction of the 13th colony as he did with the 12 Colonies?
We know that so far, with the single exception of Baltar, it has been Cylons that have had figures helping them out in their heads. Tigh had Ellen/Six, Six had Baltar and from what is suggested, the FF also had ‘messengers’. If this holds true, does that mean Baltar may have stowed away on the FF ship that flew to the 12 colonies and some how been able to make his way onto one of the 12 colonies? Or did Six actually place a chip in his head, like she suggested in the Miniseries?
I know this is probably a stretch, but throwing it out there.
“No Exit” really left me cold. This late in the game, I’m just not interested in the Ellen/Cavil/Danial story. All of the awesome comments here have made me want to rewatch, though. Hopefully I’ll like it better the second time around.
