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i couldn’t agree more, but i will anyway! 
and i think missmuffet said it earlier and best…i’ll see if i can find the quote!
what she said!! 
I tend to agree that at least the Final Five can age. I’d also go so far as to say they somehow have the ability to select the age they resurrect eachother at - or it can at least be manipulated.
I say that because the Tigh in the “Erf” Flashback looked as old as he is now, the Tigh from season two who was having flashbacks to when he first met Bill Adama in a bar and soon after when they both re-joined the colonial fleet was much younger.
Maybe it has more to do with Genetics… or genetic memories… that may explain the Roslin Opra House dreams… she started those after she got her first shot of Hybrid Cylon blood from Hera the fetus.
I think this is an assumption which comes from our definition of “machine” – we’re sort of back to the “toasters” thing, to the very human idea that the Cylons cannot have real feelings or emotions because they are machines.
Ellen believes that the Cylons have free will and feelings only because they were made “human”, but Cavil seems to have a different perspective on that. His supernova speech suggests that he believes it’s possible for pure machines to have worthy lives, a perspective that Ellen denies (“he’s wrong, Boomer”). But at the same time, Ellen is also aware that the Centurions have free will and feelings, and they certainly weren’t built to be human… hey, where’d they get those?
Oh, that’s right, “from the one true god”. Of course. And the reason why Ellen believes her god would never do the same for Supernova!Cavil is, I suppose, an exercise for the reader… one which pisses Cavil off to no end. He’s not just mad because the Five’s belief that God-wants-humanity locked him into a human form, he’s mad because that belief is clearly false, and yet Ellen insists he keep suffering for it regardless. The Centurions are not human, after all, and they are arguably worthier than anyone else on the show, at this point.
How can something that is “essentially, unconflictedly a machine, an object” have pity on Ellen and help her out of her tub? How can that object be “kind”? Well, it does and it is, so does it really matter how? Especially when we don’t fully understand how we ourselves can do those things?
Also, it’s interesting that Ellen admits she programmed the Seven to do things like sleep and believe in God. In a way, we humans are “programmed” by our biology to do those things, too, but that doesn’t make them any less real to us. Would Cavil’s supernova be any less real to him if he were the perfect machine he wants to become? Would his feelings be less real to him if he were programmed to see gamma rays and smell dark matter rather than dream about scary dog-faced boys? Who can say?
But you seem to be assuming that the only reason she isn’t completely accepting of him is because of how he feels about himself and her beliefs, not the things he’s done that he won’t own up to as I was talking about. He murdered her other child who she was very close to and put her and the other Four through hell, and she’s supposed to validate this by giving him approval anyway?
No, I totally understand why Ellen refuses to give Cavil approval: because she clearly despises him entirely, both for who he is and what he’s done. She has ample reason for that, certainly! But if we’re still talking existentialism, then she also has to take responsibility for it. And she’s not. She wants to have her cake and eat it too, just as much as he does – she wants to “love” him in a way which lets her off the hook for actually loving him. Then, when he pushes her away, she can point and say, “what? Don’t blame me! Look what he did! Look what he is! He won’t let me love him!” In the very same way, she programmed him to be human, and then said, “what? Don’t blame me! God wants you to be human! God won’t let me help you!”
My problem with this whole thing isn’t that Cavil is some wonderful blameless person and Ellen is a horrible person (ha ha ha ha ha ha frakkin’ HA, no way). The problem is that he and Ellen are both pulling the same hurtful blame-game guilt-trip crap on each other throughout this episode, and by extension, have probably been doing so throughout their entire lives (and the idea that the people in the room are all torturing each other is, of course, part of the point of Sartre’s No Exit). Yet it seems like nobody wants to admit that Ellen’s side of the equation even exists, even though it seems quite clear to me.
Not that this is surprising given the content of the episode – the extent to which the writers just airlocked the moral ambiguity of this show is surprising, and really disappointing to me. For frak’s sake, Paradise Lost? Cain and Abel? Really?
It just further illustrates his hypocrisy that he plays Boomer by selling her his…yeah, we’ll call it machineism (haha), because I would bet anything he’s actually the brains behind the whole idea of programming sleeper agents with fake memories and it’s his fault she’s so conflicted.
By trying to help Boomer become a better machine, Cavil is giving her the best thing he knows. He is giving her his dream. It looks damn creepy to us, because it’s not our dream (and, for that matter, it looks like it might not be Boomer’s anymore, either!), but I don’t see how it’s hypocrisy on his part. He probably really, honestly thinks that Boomer will be better if she’s a machine, just as he clearly thinks that he himself would be better as a machine.
Can the Centurions experience the full range of human emotions? They certainly seem capable of some emotions, but what evidence do we have that they can feel in the same way as the flesh models or as humans? And even if it’s somehow possible to create a pure machine that can experience the full range of human emotions, we need to consider the probability that Ellen has no idea how to go about making one. The fact is, she felt she had to make a trade-off, she did the best she could, and her creation has no business blaming her for what he is. Why can’t he be thankful for the fact that he exists at all? She gave him a gift, but he’s done terrible things to her because he didn’t like the gift. Who does that? Could you imagine killing your parents because they gave you a Toyota when you could have had a Porsche?
We don’t have much to go on, in regard to the emotional range of Centurions or Raiders. Cavil lobotomized the Raiders and inhibited the Centurions. The only example we have of unrestrained Centurions are the ones who were on the Guardian basestar, and Larry, in Razor. Even then, we didn’t see much of them outside of a battle or two. The only non-humanoid cylon who showed a bit of personality in the series was Scar. Again, we didn’t see him outside of a battle. Given the evidence, we can place them somewhere between Spock and Al Gore.
Sadly, we don’t know much about the metallic branch of the cylon family.
We need a short scene of the Centurions arranging the dead bodies of their victims in different coital positions. Maybe some webisodes of two Centurions discussing new uses for WD-40 and what exactly “The Swirl” may be. Then they can riff on how gay C-3PO and R2-D2 are. Perhaps Kevin Smith can direct.
I’m hoping that “The Plan” sheds some more light on the topic.
I understand your reaction to the word choice (and you are probably right), but I choose to see it as a nod to fans who will try to figure out the word and then gain a greater awareness of what Ellen was thinking.
I missed the fourth wall reference, but I suggest you listen to the RDM podcast since he had some interesting things to say about the fourth wall (and Cavil’s sense of theater).
Oh, I’m sure that’s what the writers told themselves. But heck, I’ve read Tale of Two Cities recently and I didn’t make the connection. I guarantee that those same writers wouldn’t either, if they were on our side of the screen.
By “try not to run into the fourth wall, Ellen”, I just meant that such a totally bizarre line tends to throw the viewer out of the story – you’re just sitting back watching the show, and then all of a sudden you’re watching a show, and you’re thinking “huh, wait, what? where’s the remote, I gotta run it back.”
The “fourth wall” scene he reads from in the podcast is a really good example of what I disliked about that “tumbrel” line, so I’m glad they cut it. A lot of the stuff in this episode was already a bit too much for my taste – the apple scene, the inadvertently hilarious cut between Boomer’s “who could I love?” and the Chief, the clip of Cavil praying with Milton run over the top… it all seems a little too blatant, like they were trying too hard. Guess it’s just the nature of the beast, I suppose.
On the other hand I totally like the idea that the whole thing with Ellen is Cavil’s sense of theater. In fact if you buy into the idea that ‘The Plan’ is Cavil’s plan then everything boils down to him putting on a show.
Of course I completely agree with you about the whole Boomer cut to Chief bit (but I might be a bit biased because I really do not want to see Boomer and the Chief get back together).
At the same time, I think Ellen is putting on a competing bit of theater of her own for Boomer – she even tells Boomer to watch, doesn’t she? And some of the things she says, ostensibly to Cavil, are really for Boomer’s benefit.
About the Boomer/Chief thing: I agree. I loved them in Season One, but Season One was a long time ago, and a double-rebound relationship for them seems more than a little gross.
“Hi, honey! I dumped you because you’re a Cylon, but it turns out I’m a Cylon. Your Dad, specifically. My bad! Also, I married the girl who killed you – after I broke her jaw, of course – and as part of our dysfunctional family, I have a kid who isn’t actually my kid (unlike you), and I resent him because he takes away from my valuable deck-chief time. Let’s raise him together! …wait, where are you going?”
And after the last episode, Boomer’s whole “my ex killed and tortured everyone in the human race, particularly you and your entire family… now he’s stalking the fleet, and he won’t stop leaving me Cylon text messages with nothing but >:3 in them” breakup is equally awkward. Maybe these two should have some time apart first.
…Ellen is one of Boomer’s mommies… She is very well aware of the emotional make-up of the Eights. She may have been grandstanding with Boomer, but the calculated move (woot! Ellen Tigh, baby!) worked, no?
Two more days, peeps, two more days and Ellen and Boomer ((rolls eyes at the Boomer/Chief “Soap Opera Moment”)) will be on Galactica. Frakkin’ awesome.
Ouch, a bit harsh (but funny). But I don’t care, I want to see Boomer and the Chief live happily together, they deserve some love and happiness. And as far as being dysfunctional - what in Galactica universe is NOT dysfunctional. “Normal” went out the window after the first 5mins of the mini-series.
It was a major revelation that the Centu/aurians introduced the concept of The One True God… what if The Swirl came from them, too?
Tasha Yar: “Are you programmed for pleasure?”
Data: “Yes.”
omg! It just occured to me about the whole psychology of John Cavil as No.1 : He’s not only a child, but he has a me-first type of childlike mentality.
And here I was wondering why Dirk Benedict didn’t try out for that part - he would have been AWESOME! heheh 
On the other hand;
Dirk, as any actor, would have been emotionally invested in the character he played. Imagine investing a couple of years of your life (even it was 30 years ago and totally un-PC) and then treat that work as if it never happened. And he did make some scathing remarks about the politics of Hollywood and the sense of materialism he perceives is pervading our world, where the almighty dollar is the bottomline of tv making decisions.
On the other-other hand :
Television shows cost money to make. People who work in tv should expect to be paid money for their jobs. And RDM had mentioned before (during the Season 4 finale frak party podcast) about how changing technologies is changing the way television is & should be making money; only that most networks really haven’t caught on.
Hehe, yeah. It’s not like getting back together means they’re immediately going to fly back into each other’s arms and everything will be fine. After Cavil’s spent a long time doing everything to turn Boomer into the coldest bitch machine possible and Chief has been married to the woman who shot her, it’s going to be a little rough.
Anyway, it’ll be interesting to see how she reacts to finding out he’s a Cylon no matter where it goes. Funny how Cavil has conveniently kept that knowledge from her.
Great points Sircastor.
Cavil has the advantage/disadvantage of being the first skin job created by the FF. He knows the history and he also sees the FF learning as they go, possibly changing things, and Cavil is jealous of his “siblings” for reaping the benefit of the FF’s additional knowledge. The “oldest” child gets all of the rules/restrictions, by the “youngest” they are partying until midnight on a school night. Not a general rule of course, but you get the idea.
Cavil does need to take some responsibility for his actions. Blaming the FF for everything he has done is narrow-minded, yet according to him he has changed. I agree with you that, yes, boxing Cavil would have gone against what the FF believed in.
Does anyone else get the impression that what Cavil described as what he wanted to be sounded a lot like what it is to be a Hybrid plugged into a basestar?
Yes actually. When he was talking about the abilities he wanted, I was reminded of Caprica 6’s statement regarding the Hybrid living in a mixed sort of reality…