Wow. First RDM, Kandyse and Lucianna… and now Nikki?
Are we going to have a surprise visitor in the podcast for the next eight remaining episodes? wink wink
And about the length - I’m ok with the 'cast being shorter, or staying past an hour. What I do is I put it on speaker like people listen to morning radio while I prepare for work. By the time they wrap up I didn’t notice time passing by.
The quality so far has been stupendous. Whether the 'cast is thirty minutes or two hours, it’s gonna be dragging if the content is bad. Thank goodness the GWC has been churning out so much good stuff that I don’t mind the episode length.
Not to be all “me too”, but . . . well hey, I’ve finally gotten the time to listen to the second half of the podcast now, but I’ll easy finish it by the time the next one’s out and I’ll be enjoying the hell out of the entire 'cast before then.
Both my audio players (a Sansa Clip and a Cowon D2) are really good for resuming files where one left off, so even if I don’t have the amount of time in one sitting, I easy have enough time over the course of a week!
Edit I just got to the part in the 'cast about the Gaeta/Starbuck confrontation, and I felt I really had to mention something from the (as always, excellent and thankfully/annoyingly spoiler-free) RDM 'cast for this episode: Alessandro Juliani ad-libbed the “so I guess a pity frak is out of the question” line on set! Apparently Ron Moore (who, after all, was directing) was quite taken by it and had him keep it in for the rest of the takes afterwards. Yet another little example of the collaborative aspect of the day-to-day creation of BSG.
I am with Thotfullguy here (sorry Chairspread but Welcome!) GWC is my drug. I am also of the opinion that it makes the slow times of life more interesting i.e. driving, house work, etc.
Can you imagine, for example, a general in the U.S. Army saying “I think since terrorism affects our ability to fight, that makes all decisions regarding the war on terror military decisions. In fact, anything critical – in my mind – to the survival of the U.S. is a ‘military decision.’ As head of the military I therefore replace the president in terms of making these decisions.” As far as I can tell, that’s pretty much the argument Adama’s making.
Ah…but in the U.S. the President IS the head of the armed forces. The error here then goes waaaaaay back to season one when Roslin and Adama agreed to keep military and state decisions separate, and now it’s coming back to bite them in the ass.
But I still (you’ll get the phone call today) say that Adama is acting LEGALLY in trying to enforce the rule of law by arresting a member of the government who was sowing insurrection. The legality of the Tillium ship’s crew’s actions notwithstanding (and it seems to me that a law established by mere role call vote, without a written draft and a review process, is a flimsy excuse for a law. What we have, rather, is an executive order backed by quorum approval through a simple voice vote, which, again, to me, has strong similiarities with the 2003 drive in the U.S. for the invasion of Iraq) Zarek’s “advice” to them, even though it’s not an “order,” is highly charged, politically, especially given what we know about how the people of the fleet see him (let alone what we know his true character to be, which is pretty darn close to what Adama describes during their confrontation in the brig).
For the record, I am EXTREMELY surprised at the position I’m taking on this issue and especially my passion on it. Normally I’d be inclined to side with Zarek and Gaeta, but the xenophobia and racism that informs a great deal of their push for these actions/policies, however understandable (an enemy made out to be an “other” is not easy to forgive. When the state encourages seeing the enemy as an object of contempt in order to sway hearts and minds at home things are bound to get ugly and difficult to overcome. See what happened to Japanese Americans during WWII or, closer to our time, the attempts to paint our current president as a secret Muslim, as though a Muslim president was somehow aligned with the enemy and therefore something to fear [which shows how muslims have unfortunately been regarded in some circles since 2001]), makes it suspect and incredibly distasteful to me.
ME TOO!!! I think that reveal was WAY too easy, and there are just too many weird/could be FF out there to just say that Saul’s equation of Helen as the FF based on his memory of her being on Earth with him is shaky at best. My money is on Helen being an original/ancient/older version of 6.
I loved the way Saul kept finishing people’s sentences this episode.
The truer champion of the common man in early U.S. history is Andrew Jackson, who truly believed that the government should be doing what the majority of the people wanted (with some exceptions). Zarek is probably the most like Jackson.
Excellent points all, Reydaman. Let’s not forget that, as Zarek has the massacre of the federal building (?) in Saggitaron (?) Andrew Jackson has the Trail of Tears and an illegal war with Mexico in his legacies. I have a hard time respecting Andrew Jackson and his passion for the “common man” when I consider what he did to the native peoples of Oklahoma and the sovereign nation of Mexico.
(Man, I am just ASKING for it today, aren’t I?)
Oh, and Tommy loves Sally. Just saying ;), since Virginia is for lovers and all that jazz.
Now there you go reminding us of Thomas Jefferson’s ugly legacy. Thanks, Casilda!
There was an interesting piece on Jackson’s legacy to presidential politics in the US in the New Yorker in the past few months, basically arguing that the anti-intellectualism of American politics can be traced back to him.
Ah! One MORE reason for me to hate Andrew Jackson. Thanks again!
That said, my knowledge of US literature really is quite shameful, and it’s something that I intend to remedy once this whole exams for my PhD ordeal is over…
Don’t tell anyone, but T.S. Elliot isn’t REALLY American literature. Sure, he was born in St. Louis, but he was a British subject and his poetry is as British as they come (Ezra Pound’s–whose alma mater I taught at for two years!-- influence notwithstanding).
I went through a period in high school and college when I LOVED Elliot. Now I have a hard time stomaching it. It’s so arcane and full of itself! [DUCKINGFORCOVER](I AM asking for it, aren’t I?) [/DUCKINGFORCOVER]
Welcome. When you have something else to do, there’s nothing better than GWC. Anyhow, I haven’t thought it through, but I’m not 100% convinced that Ellen is the final Cylon. She may be the fifth of the final five. But she ain’t the last. That’s what I think.
Also, re: early in the podcast: Yup, I think Tigh and Six made a pretty quick jump into “happy couple” status (even though he’s a bit overwhelmed). Maybe, based on his hallucinations while cavorting with Six in the cell, he thinks they’re connected somehow. And/or: maybe he thinks the Tighlons don’t resurrect like the other ones did, so his grieving is done, and he’s moving on.
Me three. I didn’t get to watch the ep until Sunday, and I’m still digesting it. Whether he’s right or wrong, does Gaeta have to be such a dick about it? Well, part of him is overcompensating for his inadvertent betrayal on New Craprica, I guess. Emotionally, I’m on Adama’s side. Intellectually, I’m with Zarek and Gaeta.
I find it hard to believe that the crue can’t see that Zarek is only interested in democracy with him at the head of it. He wants Roslin’s power and if his revolution succeeds one of two things will happen: The people will be even faster fed up with Rozarek telling them what to do or he’ll be unhappy with his limited power.
Beyond that, the fact that a civil war is brewing is 100% his fault. If he hadn’t called for a law/vote giving individual ships/captains the ability to say “frak you” to cylon/cylon tech there would be no civil war. There’d be hurt feelings, sure but the way it’s set up now there’s no point in any ship getting cylon ftls since half the fleet, thanks to Zarek, is not adamantly aganist it.
So…in summary: Zarek is a douche and Lt. Pube is a jerksorrybarb
Also re: length. I tend to listen to GWC either doing yard work or home maintenance or what have you but also when I need to tedious collection quest type dealies in video games. Keeps your mind off of “oh yeah…gotta get me ANOTHER gold coin wooooooo” and more “Bwahahahahah Audra said somethin funny. On a ring!”
I dunno. I think Zarek is a bit of an opportunist, but the resentment that much of the fleet (who have no experience with Athena, et al.) has against Cylons has got to be very real. Imagine fleeing WWII Germany (or whatever) and the escort captain suddenly tells you that there are ‘good Nazis’ (or whatever) and they’re going to fix your ship.
First, Sean’s take on that Starbuck confrontation, re: flying the gang colors, was totally my take on it too. Which I think is one of the many reasons that it really pissed me off.
Second, Sean doesn’t give himself nearly enough credit for good ideas. Stop being so hard on yourself, man.
Third, great discussion as always guys, even with Audra “playing hurt”.
Armando, you’ve made the only defense of Adamlin that I can support. Well done. I’m almost ready to throw my hat in with them. Almost…
I find it hard to believe that the crue can’t see that Zarek is only interested in democracy with him at the head of it. He wants Roslin’s power and if his revolution succeeds one of two things will happen: The people will be even faster fed up with Rozarek telling them what to do or he’ll be unhappy with his limited power.
Rozarek? If it’s Gaeta and Zarek, wouldn’t it Gaetek?
I’m not sure we bought it thoroughly. I did play devil’s advocate a bunch in this podcast, because I wanted to look at multiple sides of the issue. But for what it’s worth, I haven’t really taken a side. I do agree with Armando that the racism aspect is distasteful.
(I also agree with Armando on Andrew Jackson. There’s the proverbial “Common Man” and then there’s all the real people he had killed and removed.)
Audra wrote:
(I also agree with Armando on Andrew Jackson. There’s the proverbial “Common Man” and then there’s all the real people he had killed and removed.)[/QUOTE]
In some ways the fact that Jackson was responsible for the Trail of Tears makes him an even better historical example of Zarek (sp?). Jackson would probably argue that moving the Cherokee and other southeastern tribes was what the majority of the ‘people’ wanted. Furthermore, there is every reason to believe that Jackson manipulated public opinion in his speeches by using terms like ‘uncivilized’ and ‘savage hunters’ to describe the southeastern tribes when he knew full well that they were agricultural and where quickly adopting many elements of European culture (news papers, written constitution, cotton cultivation, livestock, etc…). Zarek seems to crying out for the fleet to do what the people want while at the same time manipulating the opinion of the people.
I listen to the cast while I’m at work, so I say the longer, the better!
Zarek may have some good ideas. He may be right about the dictatorship of Roslin and Adama. But I will never see him as anything more than a self-important, opportunistic douchenozzle. Uh, Tom? You kind of lost your right to whine about the system’s ill use of you when you blew up a building.
As for this week’s stunt with the tylium ship, that was pretty much the most boneheaded thing Zarek could have done (or “encouraged” or “suggested”). First and foremost it put the crew of that ship in danger. What if Cavil had shown up and the rest of the fleet had had to jump away? The tylium ship would have been all alone and screwed, as would the rest of the fleet, which would be left without fuel. Second, it was pretty much a guarantee that Adama would NOT listen to a word Zarek had to say against him. In fact, it only served as a reminder of why Adama doesn’t trust Zarek in the first place. This was nothing like hiding a tool to get an upper classman in trouble, and it had very little to do with civil liberty. It was Zarek intentionally stirring shit up so that he can grab as much power as he can.
Zarek knows he’s shady. Look how quickly he folded to Adama’s bluff. Why would he give in if he didn’t know that he’d done a whole mess of wrong?
My other problem with Zarek is his assertions about how Earth had been nothing more than a way of Adama/ Roslin holding on to their power. As if A/R somehow knew all along that Earth was a craphole? Oi. And what exactly is he going to do once he’s in power? Cause in the grand scheme, the RTFF has 2 options: either find a new home (the current plan), or float through space indefinitely before either dying off or being destroyed by the 145s.
All this is not to say that I’m on Adama/Roslin’s side. They’re doing a piss poor job too. It’s very telling that the episode ended with them lazing about in a soft bed not caring that the fleet is crumbling around them. Roslin’s need to live a little before she dies is understandable, and I even agree that she deserves a break, but she needs to relinquish the presidency, because her inaction has only caused a giant Zarek-filled vacuum. And Adama, for his part, needs to pull his head out and realize that brute force against civilians never worked for him in the past and it’s only going to bring on mutiny in the current environment.
Whew! Sorry for the wordiness. I’ll just end by saying, Hot Dog? HOT DOG? Brilliant.
EDIT: Ok, I lied. One more thing: what about the centurians? Do they also get citizenship? What is their position in all this?
Gasp! Brilliant thought! Imagine, everyone in the Quorum would have to say, “Please,” whenever they called for a vote!
And welcome to the boards, Gachnar. I love this time of year, when the BSG episodes are new, and the boards fill up with new names and avatars to meet.
Good point, but not entirely on target. Nazis are nazis, and there might not be any good ones (although former members of the Hitler Youth–like, say, Pope Benedict XVI–get a free pass because at a certain point EVERY GERMAN CHILD was required to join the Hitler Youth), there were, certainly, good GERMANS (Dietrich Boenhoffer and Oscar Schindler come to mind). Adama and Roslin are not asking for an alliance with the entire Cylon nation but with a splinter group of rogue cylons who have broken off from the rest of the nation and with whom an alliance seems practical and mutually beneficial, if risky.
I forget who it was that said at some point the fighting has to stop and these factions are going to have to come to terms. They will either have to make up and join forces, agree to part ways yet again (risking vengeance from one side or another at some point in the future) or destroy each other. As Lee said in “Revelations,” “[This has all happened before] but it doesn’t have to happen again.”
To stand violently against an alliance with the cylons in a way that splits the fleet and, if succesful, shoves the anti-cylon viewpoint down everybody’s throat on the basis of xenophobic hatred that lingers from the original attack is myopic and foolish. After all, Gaeta, if not Zarek, has had experience working with at least one cylon who has been loyal to the fleet and has proven that not all cylons are subject to programming and are capable of free will. Athena’s example alone should provide proof that an alliance with the cylons is at least worth considering. Otherwise she just becomes “one of the good ones.”
In some ways the fact that Jackson was responsible for the Trail of Tears makes him an even better historical example of Zarek (sp?). Jackson would probably argue that moving the Cherokee and other southeastern tribes was what the majority of the ‘people’ wanted. Furthermore, there is every reason to believe that Jackson manipulated public opinion in his speeches by using terms like ‘uncivilized’ and ‘savage hunters’ to describe the southeastern tribes when he knew full well that they were agricultural and where quickly adopting many elements of European culture (news papers, written constitution, cotton cultivation, livestock, etc…). Zarek seems to crying out for the fleet to do what the people want while at the same time manipulating the opinion of the people.
The people don’t always desire what’s best for them. It is a leader’s role to know what IS best for the country and selling his people on that idea. What we have in BSG (to keep on topic, even within this example), is a failure of leadership from the understandably exhausted Roslin and Adama (and believe me, these days I REALLY understand the attitude of apathy and the desire to give up that seems prevalent throughout the fleet), a failure of leadership that is easily exploited by extremists.
The Trail of Tears and the Mexican War, and, I’d argue, the notion of “manifest destiny” in general, are legacies akin to slavery in our national conscience and the manipulation of public opinion by Jackson and others is similar to the original framers of the constitution’s disastrous passing of the buck on the notion of slavery.
(By the way, Reydaman: welcome! I hope you won’t take my picking on your arguments as a sign of me picking on you. I am actually glad for these kinds of discussions and look forward to talking to you a lot more.)
