GWC Podcast #107

Podcasts Galactic Watercooler
#101

Hey, coco, no offense taken here, anyway. Yours is an interesting and not-too-often represented viewpoint in media sci-fi forums like this one, so I hope you will keep chiming in!

I think you’re on to something about the story being greater than the end product (although I do think Episode V is a damn fine film), and I think in no small part that’s due to the fact that Lucas was tapping into the archetypal monomyth and reinterpreting it for the space age. The thing is, I don’t think he was consciously doing this. I think his primary concern way back when was actually just to tell a good story. (Gosh, novel concept.) It’s only when he became aware of what he’d done, in the prequels, that – as someone else around here said yesterday – he started blatantly shoving all the Campbell “Heroes With a Thousand Faces” stuff down everyone’s throats.

As is true with so much in life, sometimes we do better when we’re not fully aware of what we’re doing. I don’t mean things like driving a car, etc…! But in terms of art, it seems, the minute you start analyzing what you’re doing while you’re doing it (ie, “the editor on my shoulder” syndrome for writers), you put yourself at a real disadvantage.

#102

I wondered if everyone when rewatching 4-6 still thought they were as good as they did when they saw them as a youngling? I think there is a magic of wonderment that we watch movies with when we are younger allows for the odd discrepancies that the adult mind does not. Most of us who saw them in the theater also have a fond memory of the time we saw it. I think sometimes we do not watch movies with entertainment in mind as adults. I think all of the movies were a fun ride and read some of the books as well. Does everything fit in the movies? No, but that brought out the creative writers of the books and other SW stuff.

I saw 4 when I was in my early teen years when my dad and I went to the theater. When I watched again this week I could recite most of the lines, but it was hard to say that it was that much better than the others. So my long winded question is does anyone think the movie seemed so much better because of its newness and the age you saw it or is it really that much better of a movie than the 1-3?

#103

Coco: I understand. I think that it is very difficult to appreciate something in the same way as the people who had it become a pop icon. I’ve had that experience with other things (and not necessarily Sci-Fi) and I’ve had a similar response - it’s kind of like, that’s it? Rarely do things live up to high expectations.

That said, I am the weird one who loved the prequels and wasn’t that into the original trilogy. I didn’t see the OT in the theaters until they were re-released (though I saw them on VHS as a kid - oh and the Ewok movies…) and it just didn’t resonate as much with me. Oddly enough, the prequels did. In that I think the viewing experience itself is really key - it really is different to see a film when it comes out vs. years later on DVD. As an example, I saw AOTC on opening night, at midnight, after having waited in line for hours and was in a theater filled with other people who were excited and expecting to like the movie. That really creates fond memories associated with the film, despite it’s many, many flaws.

I still like all the movies, but I have an affection for the prequels that seems to parallel the affection that a lot of people have for the original trilogy.

#104

By the way, the book that Chuck referenced regarding the moisture farmer and the sand people is called, Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina. It is a good book, each short story written by a different author focusing on the story of one of the characters you see in Mos Eisley Cantina, some of them actually giving you the viewpoint of the events from their perspective. A good book which I would recommend to anyone interested in Star Wars. This is truly a “Rosencrantz and Guildernstern are Dead” type book…not necessary at all, but a wonderful alternate view, fleshing out minor characters and providing them with their own backstories.

#105

So I’m about 2/3 through the podcast and have to head out… but while I have it in my mind…

awesome shout-out to literary criticism! That made my day… because maybe my profession is relevant, after all. :wink:

Audra, you’re still awesome for bringing up the women Jedi part. Shaak Ti would have had a nice death scene in Ep.3, but it was deleted. There are more women Jedi in the Clone Wars cartoons, but the ones that I recall are Aayla Secura, Shaak Ti, and then the two women Jedi who were the keepers of the crystal temple on Ilam. But - aside from the story arguments about the craaaaap being the menz fault, do we really want to let GL write more dialogue for actresses? Because he is especially bad at that. That doesn’t mean that I don’t wish that we didn’t see more prominent women Jedi in the series (and why, with all these aliens, do they all have binary sex categories?), but I’m thankful that GL didn’t try to write believeable dialogue for them.

And you guys realize that someone, somewhere, must be Photoshopping it up with the Alec Guinness in a slave costume?

I look forward listening to the rest of the podcast… great job, guys.

#106

OK, not quite done with eh podcast yet, but I still wanted to put in my two Imperial credits

I gotta agree with Solai and the others on the Forum who said they were expecting more and got “meh”. There’s a reason why many folks can’t really just sit there and “enjoy the film” and use the escapism etc. It’s the same reason that original trilogy worked so well and has such a following. The overall story of the trilogy was based (even admitted to by Lucas) on several stories that have pretty much been around since we crawled out of the goo.

boys journey to manhood.
The Wizard/teacher.
Father/son conflicts.
Pirate/swashbucklers.
Redemption.

All of these have been parts of stories in some shape or form since forever. Lucas knew that, used it and gave everyone something they could look at and feel a kinship to.

So 20 years later, he comes out with some new stuff and many folks think “Yay Star wars” but weant to feel that connection again. revisit some of those stories and feelings that have been passed down from generation to generation, and we got…

“Yoousa people gonna die??”
“it’s not fair! He always holds me back.”
“Hold me. Hold me like you did on Naboo when all we had was our love…”

really?? Seriously?? You have 20 years to pull something together and we get…second rate?

I’m not angry. Not really even hating. The casting wasn’t bad. The effects were awesome, the lightsaber duels were, bar none, beyond sweet. But, in my opinion, give an outline to another writer/director, tell them not to stray from it and let them do it.

Another thing that gets me about the writing is the direction he may have tried to go but couldn’t. After watching Star Wars Revealed http://www.history.com/minisites/starwarslegacy/
it shows he wanted to use aspects of Dantes Inferno and other classics for the prequel trilogy. it would have worked so well, but…well, he wrote it and directed it, so…

Again my two taco combo platter - dantes inferno would have worked, but throw in some Othello too. Palpatine as Iago, telling Anakin (Othello) that Padme (Desdemona) is spending a little too much time with Obi-Wan. At first Anakin blows it off “ramblings of a lonely old man or whatever”…then a scene here and there, have actual chemistry between Padme and ObiWan, enough so that even though nothing happens, convince the audience that they can see why Anakin may get jealous…in combination with the Jedi Council screwing up etc…That could have made for a powerful story and a reason for Anakin to not only turn to the dark side, but turn against his best friend as well.

And get rid of the whole Qui Gon Character. Have the first flick just be Obi-Wan, freshly minted Jedi, a bit full of himself, almost Han Solo -ish in cockiness. Save the Queen of naboo, go to Tatooine where he finds a teenage Anakin who’s a likeable kid but a little freaked out by the fact he can levitate stuff etc. Obi Wan finds out, figures, “Hey I can train this kid.” Of course Yoda objects says that he should since he is a master, hell Obi Wan has been a Jedi for like a month, how the hell could he train a newbie?? But he’s cocky and convinces Yoda the council that he can train his buddy Anakin.

He knows what he’s doing. Trust me!

Fast Forward to Return of the Jedi where ghosty Obi Wan tells Luke "I thought I could train him as well as Yoda…I was wrong.’

Chuck - Might have ot back and re-read Legacy, but wasn’t a certain Sith Lord a former Tusken Radier (Sandperson)??

OK–I’ve had my fill of rambling for now

Again, just a thought or two…

#107

I am so frustrated!

The podcasts are so dang entertaining, but I haven’t done my homework yet!

The re-air times didn’t fit my lifestyle, so I have to borrow or rent the recent trilogy- I don’t remember much from the first, and I fell asleep during the second (blasphemy, I know!), and I barely saw some of the third!

I am sorely lacking.

I watched ep 4, and yes, I was struck with how much more hokey it felt not having viewed it in years, and coming off BSG quality, it showed the tarnish. I l still dug it, though. Like comfort food, you know?

I am only part-way into #107, and I love it!

I am constantly impressed by the level of intelligent, irreverent, funny, and sometimes just plain silly discussion the Crew puts on! Couple that with the amazing call-ins, and I’m floored.

Reading the forums fleshes out that discussion firestarter. What a cocktail of content!

Thank you so much, Crew and Community!

I LOVE this place!

#108

What he said

#109

Yeah, George had help with the dialog for the first two (temporal) films. It shows.

I really hate crappy dialog. Also, sand.

#110

I think Ep IV (ANH) stands up as one of the best action movies of all time. Is it Casablanca, The God Father, The Graduate or Citizen Kane? No but it is not in those genres either. I think it is a hell of a ride. Yes there are hokie moments, but that is part and parcel of the genre. In addition, even as an adult I find no groaner moments and the acting is great for the type of movie it is. Unlike other well received action movies the action doesn’t need to cover for the woodenness of some of the main character(s) (i.e., Predator). I put Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark in the same category of truly great action movies that revived and set the bar for the genre.

Ep V can stand alone as a very good movie in addition to being a great action movie. It has great characterization. It also is able to delve into details about the universe that are truly fascinating and watchable (unlike similar exposition that sends Eps I-III to a screeching halt). It is notable that the screenplay was written by Lawrence Kazden (Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Big Chill, Siverado & Grand Canyon) and directed by someone other than Lucas.

As for Ep VI, I have to admit that as a movie it is largely running on the momentum established by the previous two. It is great to see loose ends wrapped up. The confrontation between Luke, Vader & the Emperor is great. The scenes on Tatooine and Endor are eye candy. I love it.

So while I’ll admit that my love of the OT is amplified by fond childhood memories of seeing them in the theater and remembering was it felt like to be left hanging for three years wondering if Vader really was Luke’s father and if Han Solo was still alive, I think they do hold up as great films too.

#111

Seconded…

#112

More than help with “Empire.” Leigh Brackett, the sf writer, wrote the first draft of the Episode V script. I forget who did the second (and am too lazy to do the research at the moment <g>), but it wasn’t Lucas. Okay, let me look it up – here we go, Lawrence Kasdan. It is still the finest of the Star Wars scripts.

I can only imagine any number of sf authors would’ve loved to have had a crack at writing from Lucas’ outlines – and he would have gotten some more publicity (not that he needed it). Can you imagine things like, “Lucas Announces Episode I to be written by J. Michael Straczynski” or whomever you like.

#113

coco’s post brought something to mind. If you are really enjoying the discussion by the trinity about Star Wars I recommend the History Channel’s Star Wars The Legacy Revealed. It is a two hour documentary that has commentary from fans like Kevin Smith and Peter Jackson to scholars and politicians. The site I linked to has a few extra segments not in the show.

#114

I am starting to have a thought that perhaps Lucas suffered the same downfall that he so clumsily articulated.
“I don’t need you! I don’t need anyone! You are all holding me back! I will be the best writer/producer/director ever! You don’t understand!”

#115

I think that the OT was great for taking us to that far off place. The kind of movie I like till this day.

#116

Man, I hate reading fan edits that are better than the original. It’s one thing to think what you saw wasn’t great or perfect, but its another having a clear idea what you wish you saw in your head. Reminds of the fan edit of ST:Generations going around the internets a while back. Instead of having Kirk die on the planet it had him and Picard defeating Soran, and then making it back to the mortally damaged Enterprise. For some tech reason the saucer and drive sections can’t separate and it has to be done manually leaving one survivor on the drive section. Of course, Kirk ends up doing whatever is needed to separate the ships (mirroring what he did for Enterprise B earlier in the movie). The last shot of Kirk is from the perspective of Picard et al. seeing him on the main viewer of the bridge sitting in the captains chair of the battle bridge as the warp core goes. Then the saucer section glides down the planet. Admittedly the plot would rely on intermitted transporter outages, put I doubt a dry eye would be left in the house. One of the few dropped balls in RDM’s career…

#117

I personally found “The Legacy Revealed” disappointing and in the “all too obvious” category. The feature-length documentary extra in the boxed DVD set of the original trilogy, entitled “Empire of Dreams,” however, I really liked and would heartily recommend. Maybe not so much thematic attention to the films as behind the scenes, but still, there is some and it is all very interesting and entertaining.

#118

I thought the talk about the politics was fascinating. Not so much the mythology parts. I’ve heard and read similar things a thousand times b4. Kevin Smith was fun to hear from too.

#119

gracias

yeah…sand gets everywhere–what the hell’s up with that?

gracias part two:D

Y’know always wondered about that. it’s amidttedly dime store psychology and I have no real proof, but I wonder if the fact that Empire is most fans fave just messed with Lucas a bit. Even though no one will remember who wrote or directed and aitomatically default to Lucas - I wonder if Empire popularity just made him go “No, this is my babay, I’m in charge”. He was known as kind of a control freak on A New hope…

or maybe I just dunno what Im talkin’ about :smiley:

thanks man…was just a thought or two

heh heh–you said dropped balls. heh heh :smiley:

#120

david j ~ i’m hurley and you’re rouseau when he tells her the numbers are cursed and she agrees with him!!! GET RID OF QUI GON or keep him but switch the roles they played in phantom so that obi wan went into town with padme thus anakin meets padme and obi wan together and could fuel the jealousy/othello angle!! i love you man! AND i think naboo should have been alderaan so that when it’s blown up it’s something we’re actually invested in!