GWC Podcast #106

I missed the Yoda thing too. I must say that even positive characters stereotypes can cause harm. Maybe I have a different mind set when going to see fantasy movies. I saw Yoda as a (what was Yoda?) not a character speaking proverbs in Yiddish type of language and I have that background.

Let us face the facts other worlds are very hard to create so most are made from bits of our world and mixed up in different ways. Sometimes like myself not everyone goes beyond the world they are watching. C3PO had a British voice and he was comic relief. I do not think that was a slap in the face the British people. Maybe the actor was just good for the part? C3PO only did the correct thing by accident. So there we are, how deep can you go into characterization and still enjoy a far off world from a long time ago?

Hey guys, I wanted to write in and just tell you all how much I am enjoying the Star Wars podcast. Technically I am not a fan of the episodes 1, 2 and 3 but I am a huge fan of the narrative and the universe. I just think they got so much wrong with the prequals as you will no doubt review in awesome detail.

Stars Wars episode 6 is what started my love for sci-fi. I remember riding my bike over to the Cooper theater in St. Louis Park (at the time the largest theater in the Minneapolis area with an absurdly large screen) and watching this new “space” movie called Star Wars. All I remember is sitting there with my mouth wide open the whole time, trying to take it all in. At the end I sat through all the credits and as I was wiping the drool from the corners of my mouth in the now empty theater (it was a weekday matinee), it started over again from the beginning. I did not move from my seat as I watched it a second time, enjoying it more than the first.

Thanks again for the podcast, you guys are awesome.

dave

ps. on a personal note, we welcomed our daughter Trillian Josephine into the world on June 4th, 2008. Her parents will do everthing in their power to bring her up with as much sci-fi as possible!

I am going to call in some of my thoughts, but overall I only have this to say:

Thank you guys for such a thoughtful analysis of the Phantom Menace. You take on the good, the bad and the ugly with grace and intelligence. You make me reconsider my stance somewhat…thank you for a fresh perspective.

Chuck, ramble away!

I like the prequels, too. :duck: It’s what actually got me into Star Wars in the first place.

I only do the movies so I had no idea there was an attempt in the EU to make the Gungans less useless, that’s really interesting. A re-evaluation of the effect that the characters in the movie had?

I just thought Palpatine hated everyone, I didn’t realize (and again, my lack of EU knowledge prolly has to do with this) that there was more too it out there. And I just wanted to note that you’re spot on about what “race” is - aside from pop culture and whatnot you should see the academic debates about how to define it!

Just a thot regarding Intros for the podcast.

Why not have people phone in with their favorite sci-fi moments? For example, when everyone phoned in the final moments of Planet of the Apes. Except put a GWC spin on it. Like so…

“Obi-wan never told you what happened to your father.”

“He told me enough. He told me you killed.”

“No…I am your father”

“CRRRRAAAAPPPPP!!”

i don’t think Palpatine hated others, he just L~O~V~E~D himself. if something’s name isn’t Palpatine, it’s rubbish.

So much better than I ever could have said it!
(uh, I guess it’s the benefit of actually completing one’s higher education, which only adds to a particularly fine mind! Me- not so much! lol!)

For swimming with us in this lovely environment, I post this sign:

PLEASE DON’T PEE IN THE GOO

Don’t worry Audra I’m not well versed in the Star Wars Universe either. I was in high school when the first prequel came out and I had just seen the originals several years before that. My knowledge is pretty much limited to the films.

I really found the podcast this week interesting - Chuck and Sean’s explanation of the first prequel really helped me understand it better - cause honestly, like you, I really didn’t understant what was happening when I first saw it.

That is much better than saying we are in the same boat. I think that Please do not pee in the goo could become very quotable. I give you a virtual High Five.

I was in High School when the original SW movie came out.

I haven’t listened to the podcast yet (will do so at work today), but this discussion of stereotypes reminded me that Lucas played them way back since Episodes 4 & 5. Originally, most of the Empire representatives were played by British actors while all the Rebels were Americans (or at least used American accents). Now this stereotype is not racial, but it does make historical reference to the British Empire and contrasted it to the romantic US view of the American Revolution where a plucky band of rebels used ingenuity and grit to fight back a vastly superior force. While not necessarily offensive (except maybe to the British) I can’t believe that it was unintentional in this case. Thus, it leads me to at least question how in one instance if a stereotype is used to evoke the sympathies of the audience, how Lucas wouldn’t have thought more deeply how some of his depiction’s of alien cultures could have been interpreted by the audience.

One last ironic point just occurred to me. Many of these issues of stereotypes of alien species was not a problem in the original 3 movies wasn’t a problem because they were all so different from humans (i.e., Wookies, Ewoks, Hutts etc). The most human of the aliens was Yoda. Ironically, Lucas always claimed that the available technology limited his creative vision. However, with the prequels which incorporated technology that Lucas claimed finally allowed him to make worlds as diverse and novel as he had originally imagined, he ended up with a couple of alien societies that have been argued to just be derivative of modern ethnic/cultural stereotypes…

Frak! Six pages of comments in the first day of release? How are we ever gonna keep up?

Just started listening to the 'cast, but two comments (one complaint) already (sorry!) :slight_smile:

  1. PLEASE don’t drop the “most recently broadcast episode” bit! I love hearing what creative things everyone comes up with.

  2. And is the official name of the show now “GWC” as opposed to “Galactica Watercooler”? :frowning:

As you can see, I don’t deal well with change…! But you guys are still way cool and I’ll be listenin’ no matter what.

Grace Park? How frakking cool is that?

I’m going through the podcast now - but yeah. Grace Park is awesome.

Audra’s so cute “she said she loves us!”

And you guys are so right - to all you gutter-men, she knows what you’re up to! Muwahahaha. What does objectification become when the revered object is aware of said objectification? :wink:

RE 1: Totally agree! I would say don’t change it until we are forced to by BSG’s final passing. The forced repetition has produced some incredibly creative variations on a theme. (Not to say that other call-in traditions shouldn’t be actively groomed as well.)

RE 2: The next phase of The Transformation? I don’t have a problem with it because I know what GWC is (not just what the letters stand for), but it does give the noob a little less to grab on to (kinda like my pet peev of cars being named letters and numbers instead of actual names …and KFC).
My personal preference would be Galactic Watercooler (seems universal) but I don’t get a vote.

I just thought I’d address the “black sand” comment from early on in the podcast. There are a couple black sand beaches in Hawaii, where my wife and I honeymooned at the end of May.

The “black sand” is actually volcanic rock that has been crushed and smoothed out by the crashing waves for millions, perhaps billions of years. Here’s a link to a picture I took at Waianapanapa State Park in Maui:

http://www.erikjohnson.us/gallery/v/honeymoon/hana/DSCN0314.jpg.html

Hey gang,

 Thank you so much for taking on the task of navigating all of us listeners through the wonderful world of Star Wars.  I'm an OG Star Wars fan who loves all of the movies, especially the prequels, warts and all.  

 For those of you out there in listener land who are having a difficulty looking past the scathing bile that was generated when you saw Ep. I and realized that George Lucas had gone back in time and "Catholic Priest"-ed your childhood, I hope that these discussions and podcasts will make you reconsider the prequels and look at the saga in total with a little more depth.  I agree that it's not fair to the typical off-the-street fan to walk into a flick and be expected to know a litany of backstory and unscripted exposition that isn't made apparent in the film (I've had plenty of prequel arguments where I had to defend gaping plot-holes in the movies based on information and backstory in either the EU or the novelization of the film).  But looking at the movies as a whole, and considering some of the intentions of George Lucas as creator (and we can all agree that sometimes our artistic intentions are one thing and the reaction to our creations are a completely different story), you begin to see a much more layered and fundamentally deeper story emerge in those earlier episodes.

 My take on Star Wars as a mythological opus is the journey, triumph and tragedy of Father and Son relationships.  If you look at George Lucas's relationship with his own father, you see the same depth of love, loyalty, resentment, challenges, abandonment and anger as you do with Lee and Bill Adama (or heck, even me and my dad, or most of all the males in the audience).  It's always complicated having daddy issues (ask any of the characters in "Lost").  In Star Wars, all of the major Jedi relationships are about the failures in "fatherhood".  Qui-Gon wants to become Anakin's father, which creates a rift between him and his adoptive son Obi-Wan.  He is rash and arrogant, and Anakin's persona reflects those attributes, and it drives their relationship while making Obi-Wan resentful of this new relationship.  Qui-Gon fails to fulfill his role as father and teacher to Anakin (pesky death has a way of screwing up our best laid plans), and Daddy Qui-Gon makes another bad father decision by saddling Obi-Wan with the upbringing of Little Orphan Anakin.

 The training and upbringing of Anakin is again strained by the fact that Obi-Wan, who is not ready to be a father, becomes emotionally scarred by the death of Qui-Gon, which he reacts to by changing his style of being a Jedi (a little EU and external Star Wars reading informs you that when he was Qui-Gon's student, both he and Qui-Gon employed Style IV lightsaber technique, which is the flamboyant and acrobatic style used by Yoda.  After the battle with Maul, Obi-Wan became obsessed with defensive techniques, which is why he began to employ Style III lightsaber style, which is all about defense.  A true master of this style is almost indestructible, hence, Obi-Wan being a bad mofo).  So Obi-Wan is protective and restrictive with his "son", Anakin, which we see Anakin becoming resentful of in Ep. II.  He's being "held back" by Obi-wan, and you throw into the mixture their almost "sibling" relationship, their bother-brother rivalry, and the relationship of father/son, master/apprentice, becomes even more complicated.  

 And of course there is the pseudo-father/son relationship between Palpatine and Anakin, which is nearly as complicated and sincere as it is twisted and sinister.  I do truly believe that beyond Palpatine's selfish interest in Anakin as his instrument to domination and possibly the unlocking of more powerful Sith secrets, that there is a deep emotional connection between the two.  Palpatine wanted to be a master (Father) for all of the selfish reasons that accompany that response.  He wanted to fill a vessel with his teachings, to play God, and to have a willing disciple that would become every bit his equal.  He wanted someone subservient to him, but someone who could rival and even surpass him (the Sith by-laws meld into Brando's Jor-El, where the son becomes the father and the father becomes the son).  Someday he knew that his son would come and try to kill him, and with the immense powers that Anakin was developing, Palpatine thought that he had found that person (Maul was a blunt instrument and Tyranus was just a place-holder).  And you can see when Palpatine believes that Anakin might be in danger on Mustafar, that he truly exhibits concern and compassion for his apprentice.

 The sick twist (and ironic, too) to all this is that Palpatine then becomes the father to a veritable cripple, who, although he performs his duties as the Imperial Henchman to a T, is not the apprentice or the Sith that the Emperor wanted.  So there's a love/hate thing going on that is just accentuated by the Sith maxim of the Apprentice trying to kill and surpass the Master, and vice-versa.  And so Palpatine tosses Vader aside for a new boy-toy, Luke, just as Qui-Gon tossed Obi-Wan aside for Anakin.  Fathers and Sons, going through the motions (and not in the sick, underaged slash fiction way).  Vader, on the other hand, is also doing the bad father routine with Luke, who fortunately breaks the cycle and believes in his own love for Anakin Skywalker and helps him bring Balance to the Force.

 And fitting the cycle of fathers and sons to Chuck and Sean's very astute placement of blame for the Empire on Yoda, you also have to look at the tree of succession that started with the little Green Guy.  Yoda was the Master of Count Dooku (Sith) who was the Master of Qui-Gon Jinn who was the Master of Obi-Wan who was the Master of Anakin (Sith).  Bad dads making bad sons who become bad dads, and on...

 In a nutshell, that's my thematic take on the Saga and Fathers and Sons.  Thanks for taking the time, and again, thank you for tackling the Saga.

MercuryShadow, nice pictures! Thanks for posting them. I knew such beaches existed but I couldn’t remember if I’d ever seen one in person.

MissMuffet - Yay! Then I’m not the only one who’s a bit lost. :wink:

You know what makes me really, really happy? That I’m not the one who brought up ethnic stereotyping in Star Wars!!! Mwa ha ha ha ha. (I totally agree with what Chuck was saying about it, but alas, I shall luxuriate in the Also Not Me jacuzzi.) (Sorry, Chuck.)

Edit: aarrgghyle, thank you for that astute and well-written comment on fathers and sons! Very interesting, indeed.

Wow! Very cool thought food! Thanks!

You’re welcome! There are actually higher-resolution versions of all of the pictures on that gallery, you can get to them by clicking the “Full Size” icon above the picture. The high-res picture of the black sand beach is actually pretty cool because you can see the individual rocks much closer-up.

I’m just glad someone else out there knew it was Thomas the Tank Engine. When Audra and Sean were questioning it’s existence. I was almost screaming at my ipod.

Also with all the added information and stuff, they GWC crew definitely revealed a lot more depth to the story of episode 1 than I thought was there. Good job I’m excited to hear about more Star Wars and whatever comes up next.