What's wrong with Robot Lovin'?

Television, Movies Games and Books Terminator
#1

Now my TSCC obsession is full blown… (yeah, can anyone tell I am a late adapter to everything?) I listened and read a lot of related podcast or interviews by the Writers and Producers. I also saw a lot of fan reaction. And I am amazed to find a lot of people are against “The Robot Lovin’ Act of 2027”.

I mean there are a bunch of Jamerons fans as well, making music videos on youtube. But the writers, producers and fans that are serious enough to run a podcast about TSCC are not on board the HMS Jameron.

First of all I want to say I understand I do not want to see obvious Jameron stuff right out there unless it’s the end of the series (sadly, it is actually the end of the series). Because that is the interesting part of the story. To spell Jameron out clearly on screen would be the same as Lois finding out Clark Kent is Superman. It’s the deal breaker, I get it.

But people are against the basic concept of John Connor getting with a Terminator. As a BSG fan, it got me thinking., why is it relatively ok for BSG fans to accept people fraking Cylons than John falling for Cameron? We BSG fans by the end of the series almost don’t think twice about human cylon relationship. Even when the physco Sharon was killing everyone and lying to the poor Pegleg Gaeta, I still felt human cylon relationship is no big deal with .

Obviously the 12 humanoid models are pretty much biological beings. But if they had metal for bone and still acted the same, would that change how you feel about human Cylon relationship?

What about Data? Data is all machine, and had metal for bones. Why wasn’t there an outcry about Data getting down with the ladies? although Data isn’t programed to hunt down people, but if he was tempered with, he totally can be as formidable as a terminator (that’s if the TNG crew didn’t have phaser pistols).

Data for the mot part is also emotionless. So if Data has a soul, does Cameron not have a soul? If Cameron does have a soul, why are people against Jameron?

#2

If lovin’ robots is wrong, I don’t wanna be right. :stuck_out_tongue:

Sadly, though, I must admit that I find the whole idea a bit… icky. I can’t say that Cameron isn’t a “person” because she doesn’t have a soul – frankly, that argument is very human-oriented anyway, attributing an ineffable quality arbitrarily to some beings, why denying it in others, all without any actual evidence.

No, what bothers me is dating outside the species. For all intents and purposes, I see little difference between Jameron and, let’s say, mating with an orangutan. In fact, humans probably have more in common with orangutans. To my mind, the same issue exists throughout sci-fi: Lois & Superman, Sarek & Amanda, Baltar & Six, Helo & Athena, Data & Tasha, etc.

IMO, it all just smacks of bestiality. :eek:

Aren’t you glad you asked? :smiley:

#3

I’m torn on this one. While Cameron is a robot but at the same times her feeling seem to be genuine. I think i gotta break it down and say yes to the Physical lovin…i mean she is hot. But to an emotional love i would be weary. I voted Baltar.

#4

I don’t know how genuine her feelings are, or even if she has emotional feelings at all. But at the same time, the same can be said about Data and I like Data…or the EMH… or Sharon…

I think what Cameron does have is loyalty. Whether that loyalty is the result of reprogramming or not, I think she logically, if not genuinely, considers John Connor to be worth saving…

#5

Or other humans. We assume that other people have feelings like we do, but we never really know that for certain. We see people reacting the same way that we do, and we assume that means that they have the same feelings. But we’re basing it only on appearances. Perhaps it’s easier to recognize such assumptions when the beings we’re observing are markedly different from us, such as machines and animals and aliens…

#6

That’s a good point.

I think we also thinks that other people see like we do. Aside from color blind, bad vision that can be corrected or blindness or other eye diseases. If another person has decent eyesight, we automatically assume they see things the same way we do.

I was recently in an accident where I had an blowout fracture, which impaired my right eye’s ability to fully control my pupil size.

I am constantly amazed by how different the two of my eyes see things. It’s like my two eyes have different setting for white balance, since my right eye’s pupil is always larger than my left.

That makes me wonder if people are just born with different tolerance to light. And they simply see the world a bit differently. If I saw vibrant colors, maybe to another person it’d be a bit too dark.

Anyway, Cameron is hot is what I am saying.

#7

There’s not a thing wrong with robot lovin’… until the she inevitably develops a jealousy complex and tries to DESTROY YOU AND ANY WOMAN YOU MEET!

#8

No there is nothing wrong with that; I’v been a proud supporter of the robot loving act of 2029 for a good while now. I may have been raised full bore fire and brimstone roman catholic… but whatever people want to do to get there freak on… hey who am i to judge…

#9

I had to vote no. Even though John is a ball of Raging Hormones (the character was still 16 or 17 by the end of the series), I can’t help think such a relationship could spill over and humanize terminators in his eyes and make him a less effective leader in the future.

I don’t want to reference T3 because I don’t consider it canon, but John could die due to his attachment and hesitance to specific models (Arnold’s or Cameron’s). He’d already demonstrated poor judgment when he put in Cameron’s chip after he “fixed” it (is it me or did all he do was clean the thing?). Cameron was still a walking time bomb. We never knew when or if she’d turn again.

So I have to say no, but the checking her power source temperature scene was hot in an eerie sort of way.

#10

yay, great post.

I think those reasons are very valid. Though sometimes you can’t choose who you love. You can choose not to be with them though. Well, not John Connor cause the writers choose for him, but anyhow.

I also think all John did was clean the chip. Which brings to question, was Cameron already fixed by being smashed by two trucks?

Was she telling the truth when she told John she was fixed? If that’s the truth, what about the begging for her life and I love you part?

#11

True enough. I answered solely from a practical standpoint, not an emotional one.

More great points. Imo, Cameron could have been “fixed” (akin to smacking a TV on its side) by the trucks. She also could have been “fixed” (let’s face it, she was about as broken as River or her 4400 character if not more so) from the act of having her chip removed and replaced.

With all that said, I think her begging for her life was an act, i.e. I don’t think she was fixed before he pulled her chip. Neither John nor Sarah bought it. And, from conversations since her reactivation, it seems implied that she was acting. At least to me. I’d have to rewatch it to give specifics why I feel that way. One example would be when Cameron told Sarah that Sarah could not allow John to reactivate her if she went bad again.

So yeah, the I love you part was her playing on his emotions. Plus, I think John cleaning her chip was bogus and not a “realistic” reason for her becoming good again. However, the crash, the chip pulling and replacing, and the cleaning could all contribute to her becoming good again.

#12

Man that’s a tough call. I suppose the real argument here (as I’m sure others have pointed out) is whether or not you believe both parties involved are capable of making their own choices and understand what they are doing. The old, “What is the definition of life?” thing comes into play here.

IMMHO I think that if two beings are into one another and are willing to commit to some mutual level of relationship - whatever that may be – then everyone else can suck it. It’s none of their business. Get your nose and your laws out of it and let them be.

In the case of TSCC the real question is how much Cam actually feels and how much free choice she has. Admittedly any speculation on my part is ENTIRELY bias on how damn hot she is. But then I suppose I’ve made it clear in the past I’d be the first in line for a human style Cylon too - so I may not be the most impartial debater on the pro-love squad.

#13

Can anyone screen cap what flashed on Cameron’s HUD after she was reactivated? I vaguely remember a “Terminate” command while she looked at John, but then it was overrode somehow. Anyone know or remember that scene?

#14

Here’s a question: Is she sentient? Or is she just a very convincing simulacra. It seems to me the answer to that would directly impact this question.

#15

She had Terminate on her HUD, than after 1 second (damn long for a Computer) it said Override underneath.

#16

Sean and Thunderscreech both have great questions. I wonder how you can define a person as sentient. I remember in the GWC podcasts, whether or not Cylons are sentient has been discussed many times. (by the way, that’s why I think the writing of TSCC is on par with BSG)

I used to think the bottomline is free choice. Data has free choice (mostly) so he can be considered sentient. It would seem like Cameron doesn’t have free choice. If her programming has Terminate on her HUD, and yet she choose not to do it, or she some how can override that command because she choose to, that definitely makes her more qualified for sentience.

But then again, was Boomer sentient when she was a sleeper? Is someone less human because they can be made to think a certain way? Humans can be brain washed too. Is a brain washed person no longer sentient?

#17

Thanks for the screen caps. I’m surprise how good my memory was. (:

Anyway, that’s a death waiting to happen. Sorry for the bad joke, but the override may be overrode one day. Or, the override could deactivate, then we’d have a dead John Connor. Even though he may go with a smile on his face. d:

Drugs, behavioral conditioning, and hypnotism (if you believe in hypnotism) can affect free will too.

Has anyone ever bought up the debate between sentience and sapience on these forums?

#18

The way Cameron talks about future John, makes me wonder if John has to put all those in the programming. Or did Cameron simply developed respect for him after the reprogramming.

but yeah, if I was John, I don’t think I mind going out with a smile. And that’s why I am not the savior of human survival :stuck_out_tongue:

#19

Just to muddle the debate further… (:

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Sapience.htm

Edit:

I just remembered my original reason for requesting the screen shots. It was the answer whether she was still broken after being crushed, and having her chip removed and “cleaned.” She still wanted to terminate John after reactivation, albeit briefly, so the begging and I love you part was faked.

#20

hmm… The wiki has added definition for when the word is applied to science fiction.

In science fiction, sapience describes an essential human property that bestows “personhood” onto a non-human. It indicates that a computer, alien or other object (such as “The Luggage”) will be treated as completely human character, with similar rights, capabilities and desires as any other human character. The words sentience, self-awareness and consciousness are used in similar ways in science fiction.

I dunno, it is still hard to define Cameron with either word.