Thomas Jefferson and the men of the Second Continental Congress said that governments are instituted to secure the rights of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. They wrote that there just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, and that when any form of Government becomes destructive to those ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish; and then to institute a new Government.
They also went on to say in the same document, which for anyone who doesn’t recognize it was titled, “The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,” (and yes in the title united is not capitalized) or as it is called today the Declaration of Independence. “But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
Now for some these just maybe words, but for me they carry much weight. And I think of these simple and yet these very powerful words as I watch what has happened to the government of the rag tag fleet.
Is there anyone out there who really things that the government led by Laura Roslin and William Adama is securing any one of these rights except the one of life? How many other ships are like the refining ship where Liberty is a long distance memory?
If you believe as I do that these people have failed and are continuing to fail these people, then how can you support the President or the Admiral.
And lastly, does anyone out there have a different view of what they see government as?
Hmm…you pose a doozie there, Cavatar. If I were living in the colonial fleet, knowing what the average joe on any of the fleet’s ships (or, say, what the average citizen of any country knows about his/her leaders and their motivations), I would probably support Zarek and his insurrection. But, seeing as how, as an audience member, I’ve been given almost near omniscient powers of observation over this universe (with only the writers and producers having full omniscence, obviously), I know that Zarek is an untrustworthy scoundrel who abuses his own myth borne of his original ideals. Tom Zarek does not have the interests of the fleet in mind. He has the interests of Tom Zarek and Tom Zarek alone in mind.
Even without omniscence, however, given what we DO know about Zarek I would question his motives, even while supporting his ideals. At best, the man is a Che Guevara type: an idealistic crusader with laudable views but misguided methodology and more than a slight blood lust. At worst he’s like a Timothy McVeigh: a would-be freedom fighter who is nothing more than a petty home-grown terrorist with delusions of grandeur (the major difference between McVeigh and Zarek being that Zarek is an intelligent man with a long term plan, where McVeigh was rather simple and aimless). I know, I know: one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter; but there are few situations, in my mind, that warrant violence as a means of achieving a goal (perhaps I’ve been spoiled by living in history’s longest running democracy?).
(Man, it’s gonna be a good ride to the end, isn’t it?)
I would agree that Zarek is just as or even more corrupt than any other real life politician. I am from Illinois, anyone know when Blago’s impeachment trial will be over???
However if one, as many do conceded the point that they all are crooked and crooks, and you settle with who is at least doing the best for the people they represent; then Zarek is a bit more appealing.
And yes Zarek is always looking out for number 1, and Adama “thinks” he is doing the best for the people. But that is my point; it is what “he thinks”. He now cares nothing of the thoughts of everyone he is supposed to be serving. There was a time no so long ago where he didn’t feel that way.
Isn’t a voice in how one is governed a key in liberty???
If Adama thinks his powers are just, then why is he so afraid to be judged by those who give him that power?
It’s an interesting question, and I would support Adama (as I think I’ve said elsewhere) not because of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (do we know if any of that is guaranteed in the charter or Articles of Colonization or whatever of the 12 colonies?) but rather because he’s not Zarek. Zarek was a terrorist, and I wouldn’t want someone who had made the decision to take innocent lives (though one can argue that governments make the same decisions but that they are legitimized through their role as government). I guess I’m kind of like Dee in that (I can’t find the quote from Bastille Day, though…).
I guess where I disagree with you, Cavatar, is that I don’t think that Zarek’s brand of doing what’s best for the people is the most appealing. I can’t trust him. I know it’s subjective, but that’s where I’m at.
See, I don’t think you’re quite getting Adama right. I don’t think that his “thinking” he’s doing what’s best for the people is dishonest. He is tired, yes. He is disheartened, yes. Any long journey with a disappointing ending would take it out of anyone (believe me, I know this from experience. I am finding, given my ten year search for an academic position, identifying with Roslin and Adama a lot lately). That Adama has picked himself up and begun the fight again IS in the best interest of the people. Zarek would simply have them orbitting earth or wandering through the universe in the name of a “liberty” that is anything but.
Also, that Adama has come to a place where he has learned to see cylons not as a faceless other to be vilified, ostracized and dehumanized but, rather, as living beings equally deserving of civility, respect and dignity and with whom it is worth negotiating is also in the best interest of the fleet. That this came about through the realization that his best and oldest friend is one of the “others” is simply true to reality. It sure took him long enough.
As far as a voice in how one is governed being key in victory, well, certainly. This is what elections in democratic societies are made for (granted, Roslin has NEVER been elected, which begs the question, as it has for some time, of her legitimacy, not to mention the timing for the next elections). Perhaps Baltar, as the last democratically elected president of the colonies, should be reinstated as president? After all, that was what the people decided on their last election, however unpopular that choice turned out to be. (He was also never legally impeached or recalled or whatever other method the colonies use. His trial was certainly not an impeachment proceeding, though.) Zarek, interestingly, had such respect for the voice of the people and their liberty that, instead of remaining in office as vice president and dealing with the head of the military politically, as he should have (and should be now), he negotiated a deal with the former, democratically DEFEATED president, to seat her back into power because, well, I honestly can’t say what his motivation was other than it provided an easy alleyway into government where he can continue to get his hands dirty (assuming he’s still running the black market and such) without having to deal with the quorum, the military or the people.
(Now, if we’re talking about the real world, I might have a different take on these matters.)
you know what those founding wacky fathers of your’s said; about life without liberty? Adama and Roslin are completely done to me. (airlock the both of them) as for Zarek; well looking back at history whenever a government is toppled, by revolution the resulting government is always worse than the government they destroyed for the people.
this is why I love this show. cause it makes me think of this stuff.
I would go with the whole liberty before life thing if the fate of the entire human race was not in the balance here. Emergency war powers should have been declared a long time ago to keep the sniveling Quorum from running the fleet into oblivion.
First priority is to get the fleet to a real planet where they can then set up their little government in a place that is easier to govern. Not a bunch of ships just floating hither and yon. Really surprised they can get anything done in the situation they are in now.
You see, here’s the interesting thing . In war time, frak, even in peace time, we are always going to have to somehow find a balance between liberty and security. In, BSG, we have to choose between a tyrant, and a terrorist.
Now, I can not recall Jefferson saying that he wanted people to revolt every 20 years. This is what McVaigh got wrong. From my experience, while Jefferson mistrusted a strong fedral government. He would put that you can revolt on a piece of paper, but somehow, I really don’;t think he would want to be the one revotled against. Besides he was a plagiarist anyway. I can’t renimber who came up with the social contract, it might have been Locke. Locke had the idea of “life, liberty, and property,” which Jefferson changed to pursuit of happiness because he was a wealthy property owner.
But I digress.
When it comes to Adama and Zerke, honestly, I am forced to pick the lesser of two evils. If this weren’t a matter of life and death, I’d be all for Zerek, but now is not the time to spark a civil war.
If I were a every day joe in the fleet, not knowing what I know, I’d side with Zerek. When I look at everything now, I thkink have to aggree with Adama. Zerekk is a terrorist, who honestly, probably would have suported Cane. I don’t have any hatred for Zerek, but I don’t trust him.
Don’t forget everything he did in season one. He’s a revolutionary, not a leader.
here’s the thing, Living your principles is a rough thing. and guess what it can cost you a great deal. There are certain things I have sacrificed for my principles. important things, things I feel the loss of every day. I can’t say a principle is worth humanities destruction, but i can say personally I would not see a point in living without them.
I think people are getting the singular view of liberty mixed up with the overall race’s need for survival.
People in every country every day give up liberty for the greater good of their surrounding human beings. You magnify the desperate need to the point that these people are at and those liberties might need to be temporarily removed for a little bit to get the situation to a better place.
The people in this fleet absolutely cannot stay on these ships any longer than necessary. They MUST get to a planet. At the rate people are offing themselves every moment wasted is costing lives.
So where does one draw the line when talking about temporally giving up there liberties for the sake of the greater good or in this case survival of the race?
Let me pose this question. If we could get rid of all terrorists in the world, but you had to give up all your right for a day would you? How about two days? Three days? A year? Ten years? A life time?
I am sorry but I don’t see the difference between giving up your rights and liberties for a day or for the rest of your life. To me the scar is the same. The fictional Jean-Luc Picard said it best, “With the first link in the chain forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, changes us all irrevocably. The first time any man’s freedom is trodden on, we are all damaged.”
I think we are confusing the difference between loss of liberty and the loss of luxury. Your rights as a human being are not a luxury! That is why they are called rights. Yes life in this fleet is hard; don’t get me wrong I know that and everyone needs to make sacrifices, but these people have a right in how they are being led and by who there are being led.
And I must say, if they chose to die, is that not also there right. They have already outlawed abortion, maybe the next law is forced breading “for the greater good” and the “survival of the race.”
I have been accused of getting Adama wrong and I welcome that friendly argument and would love to have it my friends. As our difference in opinion is one of the “Rights” that we all share and I personally cherish.
What rights and liberties are these people giving up exactly? Since people watching the show bitch and moan every time there is a filler episode that shows what goes on in day-to-day life around the fleet it is pretty dang hard to determine what life is actually like among the regular folks. I would hazard a guess and say they already have so little that quite frankly these last little events are just a drop in the bucket.
I’m sorry, but when you go from 50,000,000,000 down to less than 40,000, things are going to change a little.
It seems a good idea that Lincoln suspended and destroyed some rights back in the 1860s to keep things together didn’t it?
We as a people on this planet are losing rights and freedoms every day. In my opinion probably quite close to 98% of the current population of this planet have already lost enough rights to no longer justify living by some standards around here. 3% of those easily are in the United States alone.
But hey, the fleet can just keep trucking along like they are now, be all Representative Republicy and just suicide themselves into oblivion making the sacrifices of all that have died before to protect them worthless.
How about another more pertinent illustration. There is a disease spreading across the globe and unless everyone gets the vaccine we will all die. Should the governments not be allowed to make everyone take the vaccine to save the human race? Instead, we just keep our liberty of not allowing people to inject us with something and all die?
Term limits at least. Maybe something proportional: If only a majority of your constituents vote for you you get 2 terms. 58%+ you get 3, but you max out at 4 no matter how many vote for you.
Unfortunately our food would kill us without the Gov’t, our drugs might too without FDA, our cars would be dangerous and our roads wouldn’t be saf… Oh wait they’re already pretty crappy.
But for the American founders “liberty” really meant “property and the pursuit thereof.” Cause those they considered to be truly free and fully human were the white, upper class male types.
It’s neither here nor there. Just sayin’.
You do, however, have a point on the results of revolutions…with the exceptions being the American Revolution and the wars of independence in Latin America in the 19th century (to a point, and to varying degrees…oh, who am I kidding? Scratch that one. Things are STILL a mess down there, Simon Bolivar’s badassery notwithstanding. I would argue that the French revolution EVENTUALLY yielded a better government, it just took over a century to achieve [though the French would tell you, and I’d be inclined to agree as far as the national level of his influence is concerned, that Napoleon’s empire WAS better for France than the monarchy). They somehow have a way of mucking things up before making them better, don’t they?
I would go with the whole liberty before life thing if the fate of the entire human race was not in the balance here. Emergency war powers should have been declared a long time ago to keep the sniveling Quorum from running the fleet into oblivion.
First priority is to get the fleet to a real planet where they can then set up their little government in a place that is easier to govern. Not a bunch of ships just floating hither and yon. Really surprised they can get anything done in the situation they are in now.
Yes. Perhaps. But emergency powers are dangerous things. Once granted extraordinary powers in a state of emergency, leaders are seldom willing to relinquish such power (unless their approval ratings dip to record, historic lows, I suppose).
I think I side with Zarek, in terms of individual liberty. But, I also feel drity siding with him, as, whether they did it intentionally or not, Zarek is clearly reminiscent of Bill Ayers and and the Weathermen.
I agree with the founders’ principals of government, but I also know we left that road as a country about 90 years ago.
In terms of BSG, it’s a folly to even consider the ideals of Liberty. Running around in a ragtag fleet about the size of my hometown, everyone is stuck in a serfdom, with your status based merely on location(tyllium ship, Poo Barge, Cloud Nine). It’s clear to me that nothing this side of the Revelation of John even comes close to describing this kind of government. So while you can keep the ideals of Liberty, you cannot expect to reap the fruits of Liberty, at least until everyone in the fleet gets two feet in the dirt.
Okay - my opinion is that governments job is to protect us. Period. Their job is to make sure we are able to enjoy liberty. They don’t grant us liberty or rights they make the rules that keep our society safe and functioning so that we have the luxury of being free. Of course that’s only with democratic governments. And democratic governments don’t work everywhere in every situation. Look at Iraq? I’m not sure if a society where religion is in control is capable of having a truly democratic government. And that’s in the real world.
In the world of BSG I think things are a drastically different. There are on roughly 40,000 people left. I think that the survival of the human race take creedence over everything else. Because if the human race dies off it really won’t matter what kind of government they have. How about they get to to a place where there’s an actual planet to live on and then they can go about the business of creating a democratic government. And that is only possible if they aren’t at war with the cylons anymore. They simply MUST defeat or make peace with the cylons. And in order to do EITHER of those things - they really need to join with the rebel cylon faction. That is what Adama is trying to do. And what is Zarek the vice president doing? He’s inciting mutiny aboard a military vessel. Cause that’s going to make things better. Zarek and Gaeta’s way leads to more violence and more death and the end of the human race, IMO. “Hey guys, we’ve thrown off the evil regime of Adama and Roslin - guys…? Where is everybody. Oh their DEAD.”
