Want to really bake your noodle? How did Harry survive in Book 3

[Default_Prophet]

Harry has to survive the Dementors in order to travel back in time to save himself from the Dementors. Yeah. Think about it.

http://www.mjyoung.net/time/potter.html

This dude lays out what could have happened and it makes a weird sense but holy craaaaap is it complicated

Summary: Timeline A: Harry Potter Dies from Werewolf, Buckbeak Dies, Sirius Dies, Shit. Sucks.
Timeline B: Buckbeak lives, everyone else still dies
Timeline C: Buckbeak Lives, Hermione casts Patronus, saves Harry/Sirius
Timeline D: Harry goes back with Hermione, casts Patronus, everyone lives
Timeline E: Same as above but now Timeline D Harry that was being attacked thinks his father saved him so goes looking for him but then realizes he did it and already did it and everyone lives.

[Default_Prophet]

Nobody? Read it again to understand what I’m talking about. If you just read it you’re like “Oh he went back in time and saved himself. Cool” but look at it closer and you’ll see that without there being more time travel there’s no way Harry survives the dementor attack in order to go up to the castle’s hospital wing and go back in time with Hermione.

[Steve]

To be honest, once time travel is introduced into a story I pretty much give up on trying to make things line up after that. So I just accept everything after that point as fact and not lose sleep over it.

[Jarathen]

Ohh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. “I’m My Own Grandfather”! Let’s just steal the damn dish and get out of here! Screw history!

[frakkintalos]

Nobody? Read it again to understand what I’m talking about. If you just read it you’re like “Oh he went back in time and saved himself. Cool” but look at it closer and you’ll see that without there being more time travel there’s no way Harry survives the dementor attack in order to go up to the castle’s hospital wing and go back in time with Hermione.

Yeah. My head hurts. In inter-dimensional mechanics, I failed time travel. BUt I kicked the craaaaap outta Chaos Theory. Go figure.

[gwensdad2003]

I think this classic quote explains it all:

“People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it’s more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey… stuff.”
The Tenth Doctor, Doctor Who, “Blink”

Which clearly explains it all.

[Uchiha_Daisuke]

It’s called a Time Turner, not a Dimension Turner. Nobody ever died. It always happened one way.

In time travel the cause does does not have to precede the effect. In book 6 we find out that Dumbledore is skilled enough to detect “known magic”. He detects the time travel, plays along and give inspiration to Hermione and Harry when the time arises. -IMO

[Default_Prophet]

It’s called a Time Turner, not a Dimension Turner. Nobody ever died. It always happened one way.

In time travel the cause does does not have to precede the effect. In book 6 we find out that Dumbledore is skilled enough to detect “known magic”. He detects the time travel, plays along and give inspiration to Hermione and Harry when the time arises. -IMO

Uh…no. Sorry. That’s not how it works. You have to be alive in order to travel through time. You can’t just be attacked with no hope of rescue only to show up in the hospital wing a half hour later because you saved yourself unless you were saved by other means already. It’s just not possible.

It’s like if the indians at the beginning of Back To The Future 3 had killed Marty, he’s not going to be able to go back to the future at the end of the movie cause he’s dead

[Phil]

Uh…no. Sorry. That’s not how it works. You have to be alive in order to travel through time. You can’t just be attacked with no hope of rescue only to show up in the hospital wing a half hour later because you saved yourself unless you were saved by other means already. It’s just not possible.

It’s like if the indians at the beginning of Back To The Future 3 had killed Marty, he’s not going to be able to go back to the future at the end of the movie cause he’s dead

But its a magic time travel device – I don’t think logic is particularly relevant.

Now if this were Star Trek then I could waist many calories trying to rationalize it…

[THX1966]

Any time the issue of time travel comes up, I think of a quote from my favorite book…as follows…

“Yeah. Listen, I’m Zaphod Beeblebrox, my father was Zaphod Beeblebrox the Second, my grandfather Zaphod Beeblebrox the Third…”

"There was an accident with a contraceptive and a time machine.

sums it up for me.

[Apollymy]

Uh…no. Sorry. That’s not how it works. You have to be alive in order to travel through time. You can’t just be attacked with no hope of rescue only to show up in the hospital wing a half hour later because you saved yourself unless you were saved by other means already. It’s just not possible.

It’s like if the indians at the beginning of Back To The Future 3 had killed Marty, he’s not going to be able to go back to the future at the end of the movie cause he’s dead

It’s children’s fiction, ferchrisake, not a physics lesson! It happens the way it happens because the author wrote it that way!!! Anything can happen in the imagination! And besides that, time travel does not exist, except in FICTION!!! So, applying linear time restrictions and “accepted” time travel rules is just silly. We just don’t know!

Sorry, I’ve just never understood the need to poke and prod a fictional story to find every little idiosyncrasy.

[Default_Prophet]

It’s children’s fiction, ferchrisake, not a physics lesson! It happens the way it happens because the author wrote it that way!!! Anything can happen in the imagination! And besides that, time travel does not exist, except in FICTION!!! So, applying linear time restrictions and “accepted” time travel rules is just silly. We just don’t know!

Sorry, I’ve just never understood the need to poke and prod a fictional story to find every little idiosyncrasy.

Jeez calm down. It still doesn’t make sense. Does make sense however given the article in the op which isn’t contradicted by the story so =P

[El_Jefe]

It really just depends on the type of time travel theory used in the particular story or movie. Sure, if you want to get into physics/space-time debates, you can, but when it comes to movies, you just have to determine what version of time travel is being used and accept it as fact.

Many stories use this type of time loop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradoxes_in_fiction

In Terminator, John Conner sent Reese back to save his mother from the terminator. Reese becomes John’s father. But, how was John even born if he had to send Reese back to become his father? The same way Harry saves himself.

In these particular timelines there is a time loop that has always existed and always will. There is no “original” timeline in which Harry would have died. There is no timeline in which Reese did not save Sara Conner and father John. Instead of thinking of the timeline as being a growing or moving thing, in which one point must logically exist before the next, you must instead think of it as something that was created whole. The loop has always been there.

It is fun to ponder paradoxes, though. One of my recent favorites was on Lost. Richard Alpert gives Locke a compass in the “present.” In the past, Locke gives the compass to Richard. Where did it originally come from? Again, fun to think about, but in the context of the story, the compass has always existed in this fashion and never had an “original” owner.

I’m sure we can find more if we think about it.

[Apollymy]

Jeez calm down. It still doesn’t make sense. Does make sense however given the article in the op which isn’t contradicted by the story so =P

Bah! Do you know what suspension of disbelief is? “Making sense” means little when an author has created a “magical” universe where their story takes place. Not every fictional story has to jive with reality…

In Terminator, John Conner sent Reese back to save his mother from the terminator. Reese becomes John’s father. But, how was John even born if he had to send Reese back to become his father? The same way Harry saves himself.

ExacTly! Thanks, eljeffex!

[Default_Prophet]

It really just depends on the type of time travel theory used in the particular story or movie. Sure, if you want to get into physics/space-time debates, you can, but when it comes to movies, you just have to determine what version of time travel is being used and accept it as fact.

Many stories use this type of time loop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradoxes_in_fiction

In Terminator, John Conner sent Reese back to save his mother from the terminator. Reese becomes John’s father. But, how was John even born if he had to send Reese back to become his father? The same way Harry saves himself.

In these particular timelines there is a time loop that has always existed and always will. There is no “original” timeline in which Harry would have died. There is no timeline in which Reese did not save Sara Conner and father John. Instead of thinking of the timeline as being a growing or moving thing, in which one point must logically exist before the next, you must instead think of it as something that was created whole. The loop has always been there.

It is fun to ponder paradoxes, though. One of my recent favorites was on Lost. Richard Alpert gives Locke a compass in the “present.” In the past, Locke gives the compass to Richard. Where did it originally come from? Again, fun to think about, but in the context of the story, the compass has always existed in this fashion and never had an “original” owner.

I’m sure we can find more if we think about it.

It’s exactly like Terminator but there was an original timeline where in Sarah Connor had a kid, named him John, and he’s a rebel leader vs Skynet. When Kyle Reese goes back in time he changes the timeline so that he’s the father, and imparts knowledge on Sarah Connor that makes John a better fighter. There had to have been. You can’t time travel if you don’t exist or you’re dead, it’s just not possible.

The wiki you linked deals with self-fulfilling prophecies where in you do something to try and change it only for what you wanted to change to occur anyway. That’s not what happened in Harry Potter 3 and it’s inclusion is silly.

To put it even more simply: If you’re in a situation where you die you can’t then go back in time from the future in order to prevent it. It’s not possible. You’re dead. What the original post is talking about is going back multiple times, changing small things in order to get the situation to the point where the timeline presented in the book is possible.

In order for that to be true SOMEBODY (Likely Hermione ) had to go back in time alone to scare off the Dementors so they didn’t kill Harry and Sirius. With Harry alive they travel TOGETHER back to the past and Harry casts the patronus this time. On the far bank he sees “his father” do it and has that stuck in his head so when THAT Harry(Bank Harry) gets to the hospital wing and travels back in time w/ Hermione he remembers seeing his Dad(But it was really him) so he casts the Patronus.

Comprende?

[Default_Prophet]

Bah! Do you know what suspension of disbelief is? “Making sense” means little when an author has created a “magical” universe where their story takes place. Not every fictional story has to jive with reality…

ExacTly! Thanks, eljeffex!

It’s not suspending disbelief! Suspending disbelief involves believing the universe and how things work in it. If it doesn’t jive with it’s own reality there’s gotta be an explanation for it which the original post lays out!

[Uchiha_Daisuke]

Maybe you should go join this guys cult if you love him so much.

In these particular timelines there is a time loop that has always existed and always will. There is no “original” timeline in which Harry would have died. There is no timeline in which Reese did not save Sara Conner and father John. Instead of thinking of the timeline as being a growing or moving thing, in which one point must logically exist before the next, you must instead think of it as something that was created whole. The loop has always been there.

Thank You, ExacTly what I am saying.

Uh…no. Sorry. That’s not how it works. You have to be alive in order to travel through time. You can’t just be attacked with no hope of rescue only to show up in the hospital wing a half hour later because you saved yourself unless you were saved by other means already. It’s just not possible.

It’s like if the indians at the beginning of Back To The Future 3 had killed Marty, he’s not going to be able to go back to the future at the end of the movie cause he’s dead

Your whole argument is not even based on fictional fact. :rolleyes:
HARRY NEVER DIES, what about that don’t you understand. Don’t make more fiction for your time travel theory.

You continue to talk about time travel and changing dimensions. Back to the Future and Terminator are both examples of that. Time travel in your own dimension is just how we have said, It is a continuous loop. It doesn’t mater if you travel in time because you always did so. You can’t change anything because whatever you did is what happened. It is much the simplest type of time travel and is what happened in PoA. Na na na na na na!

[Default_Prophet]

Maybe you should go join this guys cult if you love him so much.

Thank You, ExacTly what I am saying.

Your whole argument is not even based on fictional fact. :rolleyes:
HARRY NEVER DIES, what about that don’t you understand. Don’t make more fiction for your time travel theory.

You continue to talk about time travel and changing dimensions. Back to the Future and Terminator are both examples of that. Time travel in your own dimension is just how we have said, It is a continuous loop. It doesn’t mater if you travel in time because you always did so. You can’t change anything because whatever you did is what happened. It is much the simplest type of time travel and is what happened in PoA. Na na na na na na!

Dementors attack him and Sirius. If there’s nobody to save him. He dies. He can’t save himself unless somebody is there to save him. So he can never, on his own, reach the point where he doesn’t die without somebody else casting a patrnous first. And it’s not alternate dimensions, it’s the same dimension, different time lines

[Casilda]

Dementors attack him and Sirius. If there’s nobody to save him. He dies. He can’t save himself unless somebody is there to save him. So he can never, on his own, reach the point where he doesn’t die without somebody else casting a patrnous first. And it’s not alternate dimensions, it’s the same dimension, different time lines

Sorry DP, I am going to have to agree with Uchiha Daisuke. It’s deterministic, Harry being attacked by the dementors and saved by himself always already happened.

[Uchiha_Daisuke]

Dementors attack him and Sirius. If there’s nobody to save him. He dies. He can’t save himself unless somebody is there to save him. So he can never, on his own, reach the point where he doesn’t die without somebody else casting a patrnous first. And it’s not alternate dimensions, it’s the same dimension, different time lines

Then, just to make you feel better, it was Dumbledore that did it the first time. We know a Patronus can change and Dumbledore is bad ars so he could probably make one look like anything. Also, he says he doesn’t need a cloak to make him invisible so he probably doesn’t need a Time Turner to travel through time. I have always assumed that was one of the things he could have done to reach Harry’s hearing in Book 5. When Harry travels back he thought he saw himself so he had faith that he could do it this time. Just as Ron did when he thought Harry gave him Felix in Book 6.

HA Ha!! A theory that actually makes sense and uses fictional fact.

P.S. My friend Occam would like a word with you about your time travel theories.