On the Tory evil thing. Yes, she murdered Cally, I think most of us agree on that. However, look at the big picture. The final five are beginning to see themselves as savior figures, and Cally would definitely have ruined that, so a case could easily and quickly be made that Cally, and her inability to see past them as Cylons, needed to be put down to prevent them from being blocked from fulfilling their need to save humanity.
Also, I am not so sure that Tory waited around in the airlock chamber for Cally to wake up. She had to re-open the doors, then close the door and go around into the room. Cally never really lost consciousness, I don’t think, so basically just being daze probably was looking around before Tory even got into the room, but then noticed her as she pushed the button.
Waiting around would not have been logical action, given the high probability of someone coming in and discovering what was going on, so I think that Tory would have been acting as quickly as possible.
In the end, this will help Tyrol to separate completely from his humanity since I think Cally was the only thing keeping him there, and that should prove interesting.
As far as Nicky goes, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Tory goes off and hides him and just tells everyone that he went out the airlock with Cally. She seems to have her own agenda now, and she could definitely view him as a ace card to keep in her back pocket.
Well, considering that their machine race had nuked the colonies, Nazied them on New Caprica and is currently trying to shoot them out of space I would say that if they think they’re on a mission to save humanity, then they are delusional beyond reason.
It has already been clearly established that the final five are independent of the decisions and actions of the rest of the cylon models, and therefore we can not hold them to account for the actions of the other seven, nor can we assume that they will in the end act as they did.
Regardless of how evil Tory’s action may seem, I believe that she feels that she is acting in the best interests of humanity… at least at this point.
Of course, the road to hell is paved in good intentions… so…
I would be surprised if that could be justified. I think Tyrol and Tigh just want to live the lives they know how to live. They’re lost and afraid of change. Tory is the one who is starting to understand her Cylon purpose.
The delusional savior figure is Baltar. And even then Baltar’s religion features “the Cylon god.” The one Head Six told him of. I suspect he is being played.
I pitched my idea on a blog where Baltar hears one of his followers praying in her sleep, “Dear god, make me a Cylon like Baltar so that I never have to die,” and he learns that the first disciples of his cult heard of the “one true God” concept from a Six back on New Caprica.
For one, RDM has said that they are significantly different from the previous model cylons.
To date, they have continued to fight against the cylon, and not allowed themselves to act against humanity.
Tigh relies heavily on his past to keep focused on what decisions he going to make about his future, and all the characters have played major roles in “protecting” the last of humanity.
Tigh and Tyrol leading the resistance on New Caprica, Anders leading the resistance on Old Caprica, and Tory serving the president (her role being a bit smaller and more ambiguous.)
A case could already be made for Anders saving humanity by thwarting the attack during the season premier.
If they really intended to act in such a way to harm humanity then they would have likely axed Cally already, since she was obviously becoming an issue, and that idea was never even discussed in the secret meeting in the enterprise weapons locker.
Like I said, Tory seems to be finding her own path that may lead somewhere else, but I don’t think that she is acting like a cylon. I think that she is feeling a rush of power, and thinks that she can save humanity in her own way. While i think she will ultimately do more damage then good, I believe at this point, she feels that she acting in their best interests.
Tory thinking she can save humanity and killing Cally as merely a way to exercise her new found power as explanations for why she is not acting as a true Cylon is a tough sell. It sort of like trying to make the evidence fit the conclusion that one has reached, after reaching the conclusion.
The human are going to run into some real problems with one, more or all of the FF, I think. After all, if they really were on the humans’ side, Anders would have fired on that raider.
(“They will not harm their own” -OGG (Old Goo Guy) - although that sure is not slowing down Cavil.)
But I don’t think the final five as characters KNOW that they are different from the other cylons - just because RDM says that they are different doesn’t mean that the characters themselves know that.
I feel like it’s a big leap to say that because they haven’t actively gone against the human race and have continued to be the people they were - that it means they see themselves as the “saviors” of humanity. They may actually be the saviors but I don’t see any evidence that they see themselves that way. Just my opinion
I get the impression that they are just all really frakked up about it - except for Tory obviously. I agree with you about Tory feeling the power of being a cylon and acting on it. I think she just saw Callie as a threat to her own survival and took steps to eliminate that threat.
Yes, Tory is probably feeling empowered for the first time in her life (whatever that means), and she’s chosen to MURDER a female human, one of only several thousand left in the known universe who can reproduce human-kind. Strike One.
The Final Five had no idea they were anything but human until Bobby D let loose with the singing…I don’t think it’s fair to say “They’ve been acting in humanity’s best interest all this time”…they thought they were HUMAN for all intent and purpose until the final episode of S3…12 years ago…(ok, kidding). We have been given no idea what they’re up to for several episodes now. Strike two.
Anders saving the human race in his first dogfight…again, completely unbeknownst to him…he was clueless, he did not MEAN to save humanity, it just happened due to clever eyeball wiring.
In conclusion, I would like to see Tory drawn, quartered, and nuked in deep space 30 seconds before Human and Cylon make a lasting peace and settle on Earth for eternity in great happiness.
Just sayin’.
I agree, that they probably don’t fully know they are different, and who knows RDM may just be yanking chains as he has done so often in the past, but they do realize that they have more control then other “sleeper” cylons. Since Boomer woke and immediately shot the old man (indicating that she completely lost control once she knew she was a cylon) , and they have already figured out how to exercise control over their actions. This would be at least a first indication that they are different.
They all (with the possible exception of Tory) have to know that they Seven other models do not know about them, since all of them have been targeted for termination by the cylons at one point, and Tigh knows best since he has been involved in all the high level crap about the final five.
So, I hold to it that they at least know that they are unique and that their goal is to help rather then harm humanity.
Whether it is as clearly defined to them as I put forth, maybe not, but as SciFi is so fond o saying
Please bear with me, this might get a bit discombobulated.
Cruel, yes. Morally wrong according to my own code, yes. But necessarily evil in the world of the show? I’m not convinced yet.
As have many of our most beloved characters. Is she the first non-military person we see doing this, though? I don’t see anyone calling Cally evil because she killed Boomer in cold blood in S1, Gina evil for killing Admiral CAne in S2, though I might be mistaken. And to keep my examples limited to woman on woman violence. Also, the 7 Cylons don’t have clean hands when it comes to killing in cold blood either, though we’ve seen some interesting reactions and rationalizations from that camp.
I see Lee’s speech as very applicable to the situation. He arguing that fundamentally, everyone in the fleet - or at least, the characters we are most familiar with - has in some way participated in an action that under other circumstances would be viewed as immoral, a human rights violation, punishable by some very severe penalties. The difference is that they are no longer functioning as a civilization; I don’t think he’s trying to relativize actions, but rather frame actions that are still on some level morally wrong or at the best, ambiguous, in such a way that the society can continue to function. Tory’s actions in my mind would most definitely fit within the litany of crimes that Lee described. Perhaps we could argue that her actions are more self serving than some of the others listed, but I don’t think you can condemn her without also condemning everyone else (which I believe was part of why Baltar was found not guilty.)
The essay where she talks about the banality of evil is from Eichmann in Jerusalem, and the essay your commenter mentions is a way of response to the reactions to her original piece on Eichmann. (Anyone who is interested can read the Personal Responsibility essay here). In terms of the banality of evil, the concept is basically that a mediocre person commits evil acts (which does not make one “evil” per se - we must remember to separate being and actions) within a context of a more intelligent corruption of societal/moral norms. If we buy the “original programmers” bit, one might read Tory as the mediocre actor of their plan. That is, if the Cylons still/ever had a plan.
I would say her essay (in the link) focuses more on why people did cooperate with the Nazis, in the context of assigning individual or collective guilt/punishment in retrospect. While obviously not a perfect fit, I found this interesting:
The dividing line between those who want to think and therefore have to judge by themselves, and those who do not, strikes across all social and cultural or educational differences. In this respect, the total moral collapse of respectable society during the Hitler regime may teach us that under such circumstances those who cherish values and hold fast to moral norms and standards are not reliable: we now know that moral norms and standards can be changed overnight, and that all that then will be left is the mere habit of holding fast to something. Much more reliable will be the doubters and skeptics, not because skepticism is good or doubting wholesome, but because they are used to examine things and to make up their own minds. Best of all will be those who know only one thing for certain: that whatever else happens, as long as we live we shall have to live together with ourselves. (45)
While I’m not sure yet how this would apply to the Cylons, I think that it is interesting to consider given the Fleet’s trajectory.
And who knows… maybe personal responsibility under dictatorship will become more overtly applicable, depending on Roslin’s political moves.
Agreed. That said, I don’t really want any of the characters to die (though I wouldn’t mind Cavil becoming a vegetable).
Yup. She still killed in cold blood. I’m just arguing that she’s not necessarily evil, or a monster; rather, she committed a monstrous deed.
Interesting thought… I admit I find it attractive partially because it takes away some of what people have been seeing as the most bad part of Tory’s actions. We’ll see how it all plays out in the coming weeks…
And thanks for bearing with me until the end of the interminable post!
Well, I don’t think the writers believe in any absolute morality. They’re writing like they’re trying to challenge such ideas. So, I’d say they’re moral relativists of a sort. But that relativism only goes so far. Our morals, ethics and ultimately laws, if you’re a humanist, are (well, should be) designed to support the things we all tend to value, a good life, the future of human civilization, the things that make our lives worth living.
But Cylons do not have all the human values. While they may not be evil in their own eyes, and they may not be evil in any absolute sense – evil, monster, etc. are good enough short-hand for what I’m getting at and it tends to help me avoid this discussion you’re dragging us into which is one of the most complicated ones in philosophy.
Killed, yes. In cold blood, no. That was a crime of passion and politics. And I think it was a big mistake on her part. It was like Jack Ruby killing Lee Harvey Oswald after the JFK Assassination.
That did not look cold-blooded, that was hot-blooded, passionate, revenge.
Blowing up Cloud Nine, however… That could have been cold blooded and “evil.”
But was there any serious crime done that wasn’t motivated by some vision of a greater good for the fleet?
I don’t think they do fit within the litany of crimes that Lee described. Maybe Tory will change her tune and be forgiven in the future, but right now it looks like the path she’s going down is not for humanity’s benefit.
Even Baltar, based on the evidence they had, seemed to be doing what he thought would save the most people.
I think it already has. Remember Helo killing the Cylons so they wouldn’t upload and spread the disease? He was trying to prevent Adama’s attempt at genocide.
Hm, perhaps cold-blooded vs passionate isn’t the best way to describe/differentiate the murders we’ve seen. Either way, someone (or as in the case of Cloud 9, lots of people) is dead as a result.
Though we still don’t know what the FF (or each individual, I don’t know if we can think of them collectively) has as a goal with regards to humanity or cylonicity, I’m not sure that the “serious crimes” we see committed are actually for the greater good. Boomer’s death, for example. I’m also not sure Roslin’s airlocking Cylons (though whether or not this is a crime is debatable) was necessarily the wisest decision to have made, in hindsight. What about the actions of the Circle? The use of suicide bombers by Tigh? I’d argue that Tory’s self-preservation of the secrecy of the FF identities is indeed in the interests of the fleet; despite the lobotimization of the raiders, the FF have protected the fleet, albeit unconsciously, once already.
The short version is: I don’t think we can judge Tory’s actions yet; Baltar’s didn’t seems to save the most people at the time. But my inclination is to include her airlocking of Cally in with the perdonable crimes. And I think this is where we’re going to have to agree to disagree on the litany.
Ultimately futile. They may have expressed resentment, but I doubt there was any way for them to win without Galactica showing up.
It also wasn’t clear that the Cylons were trying to be “evil” at that point. It’s not clear why they continue to bother with humanity, they’ve already won. They may have wanted peace but had no idea how to deal with the hatred they’d inspired.
Well, Anders getting scanned halted one attack, but that’s apparently because the final five are part of some other plan. Complete extermination doesn’t seem to be their goal. The Cylons may want a small human population for the breeding of hybrids, as they were doing back on Caprica.
No one can ever make any judgement in full knowledge. But I’ve seen enough that I would pass judgment on her.
I think Baltar did save the most people. If they had gone and fought a full out war without the Galactica there they might have gotten themselves exterminated.
Yes - we’ll have to agree to disagree. I see nothing pardonable about it.
Just don’t pipe me …