Star Trek Into Darkness *Spoilers*

Television, Movies Games and Books Star Trek
#1

I just got back from a midnight showing here on the West Coast, and I have thoughts… many thoughts… but most people in the US will not have seen the film yet. So.

SPOILERS AHEAD.

I loved the movie, except that Cumberbatch was Khan. A. Really? 2nd film, so let’s do Khan? Little did I know that re-watching Wrath of Khan last night would be so appropriate. and B. Did they really need to get a super white dude (whose work I love, but still) to play frakking Khan Noonien Singh? I mean, it’s not like there are so few parts out there for the white men that they need to give parts written for brown men to the white men, but still…

So that’s mostly my gripes… and the scenes that mirrored Wrath of Khan (the inversion of situations, the primal Khaaaaaaaaan shout, etc.). But there were many things I loved about the film:

  1. I think they came up with a creative way to deal with the fallout of the Eugenics Wars - we know the Botany Bay is out in space even before Nero screwed the timeline. I just wish they had gone with NOT KHAN. And if they went with Khan, to maybe pick a different actor (I just kept telling myself to think of Cumberbatch as if he were someone who wasn’t Khan and that worked for me)
  2. Section 31!
  3. Dr. Carol Marcus!
  4. Scotty. All things Scotty.
  5. KLINGONS. There were Klingons! With ridges! But without hair… huh?
  6. Tribbles! Good thing there were no Klingons on the Enterprise.
  7. Uhura was much more her own character this time around, yay (I loved her assertively going out and using her Klingon skills)
  8. Admirals suck. We’re back to normal!

I do plan to see the movie again, so I’ll probably be back with more commentary. And just because of one (OK in my mind fairly major) critique, I’ll emphasize again that I did quite enjoy the film.

And if I may be catty… the people in the theater with me!? Didn’t know who Benedict Cumberbatch was!? Hadn’t read Ender’s Game!? (was a preview). I was the only one who gasped at the Khan reveal. Who are these people dedicated enough to come to a midnight Star Trek showing, but not aware of the film Wrath of Khan (I overheard some things). Seriously. I am glad they will learn about these things, but I was surprised.

#2

I went last weekend, but I was holding off on commenting. The rumour mill had been saying Khan all along, but I thought it had been debunked. A scene showing the Botany Bay would have been nice. I loved the various reversals from WoK, like Kirk taking the radiation hit, and Spock’s “KHAAAANNN!!”. The Section 31 reference was great, especially as I’ve just finished a ds9 rewatch. I think there was an NX-01 model in the Admiral office.

#3

YES! LOVED the Section 31 reference and the “photon torpedoes” actually being the tubes etc. Kirk being the one to save the ship, while Spock is on the other side of the glass…brilliant! Klingons looked awesome! Scotty was EPIC! Carol Marcus was aweopmse. The back and forth between Kirk/SPock/Uhura was hilaorious!

The one nitpick I had was why didn’t Abrams just say Cumberbatch was playing Khan.? He didn’t have to say anything else…it was his reveal and how he wove into the story that made it great…just say he was playing Khan and stop with all the offical denials. Back on Podcast #300 I said he was Khan…but then all the “John Harrison” denials started up. Just tell us he is Khan and let the story of how he fits in be the surprise. (IMO)

But I truly got my geek on with Spock Prime showing up for a second. BRILLIANT

#4

BrettAZ and I dashed off to the theater at 7:59 last night to catch an 8:10 show (we were living in the moment). We both loved it. Did it have the edge -of- your- seat urgency of the first film? Nope. Did it need to? Nope. It felt more like a great double-parter episode, which is fine with me. Sure, did I figure out ten minutes before the hands touched the glass the juxtaposition of Kirk/Spock? Yes. Did I sob, I mean SOB, during the entire scene, even knowing the what the final outcome would be? Hell YES! (I suspect BrettAZ was emotional then too.)

Because of the sobbing, Spock’s cry out was such a surprise to me and so very satisfying- more in terms of his character development than as a WoK homage.

I would have liked more screen time for Sulu, Chekov and Scotty, but Kirk and Spock’s relationship was always the heart of TOS.

My only compliant? I have to figure out a way to tell HubAZ I went first without him. I also wish I’d made KidsAZ watch WoK in their classical SciFi ED unit I did. Not sure how I missed that one.

For you haters out there- suck on this- my 17 year old son thinks Star Trek is cool as hell. Does he need to be grounded in cannon to appreciate what is amazing and provocative about the show? No he doesn’t. What matters here to me is seeing great content become relevant to the next gen.

#5

Whereas for me the film was great until it started parroting what was done before. It took me out of the film (and it’s hard to make me un-suspend my disbelief!) and just bothered me. I don’t think the new series has sufficiently built up the friendship between Kirk and Spock to make those scenes meaningful (and honestly I wish the team had just been creative and gone their own way! The point of the reboot is that they’re not constrained by all of what came before), and the more I think about it the more I’m bothered about how the trio (Kirk-Spock-McCoy) seems to be really just a duo in the new version.

The vitriol you seem to express is… odd. If other people like it, good for them. If they like the action-adventure, great, but I didn’t think this film succeeded the way the first one did. Quite honestly, the further I get from the film the more discontented I am with it. The character names and costumes were there (and I think the actors did the best they could with the material), but it just didn’t feel like Star Trek. What Phil Plait wrote in his review really resonated with me:

Now I know that this will sound like a get-off-my-lawn kind of moment, but seriously: Trek isn’t supposed to be about this kind of stuff. Trek is about the relationship of the characters and the grander theme of exploration. It’s also a meta-story about us. At its best it was a deeply thoughtful mythology about ourselves and our conflicts, an allegory of our modern problems and flaws of humanity—war, greed, bigotry, narcissism—and how we overcome them, told as science fiction. That’s why we’re still telling these stories nearly 50 years later.

This movie wasn’t any of that. To quote the great story-teller Homer (Simpson, that is): It was just a bunch of stuff that happened. Fight scene, battle scene, people running, conversations, then more fighting. It had the elements of Trek, but that signal was shouted down by the noise.

A big part of what made the original movies work was the way these old friends interact. In the new timeline they’re not yet old friends, of course, but in this movie there wasn’t a lot of progress made in that direction.

#6

Idea: What if Cumberbatch is Khan, just not Khan Noonien Singh? Stick with me a sec.

He introduces himself as Khan. Imagine for a moment that Khan is not really a first name so much as it is a title. Noonien Singh was the Khan of the supermen and his reign was described as a ‘Khanate’, right? So 1 of the 73 survivors is revived and they ask who he is. The augments are all selected for traits that leave them power hungry and ambitious, so why not look around and announce that he is now Khan? Noonien Singh is still asleep in one of those cryotubes and Khan Joe Dingelbert (or whatever his name is) is the Brit we see in the film.

Did Khan introduce himself as Khan Noonien Singh? No, just Khan. As I recall, when Spock makes his phone call to the colony, he asks if he’s ever heard of “A man named Khan”. Spocktimus Prime says, after a quickly ignored promise to avoid spoilers, that Khan Noonien Singh is the most dangerous adversary the Enterprise ever faced. HE saids Noonien Singh, not Benedict Cumberbatch of NuSpock.

So is Benedict Cumberbatch Khan? He sure is. Is he the pony-tailed lothario who fell in love with Martha McGivers and retired to Ceti Alpha Sucks? No, that’s a different augment who is now stuck in a Starfleet warehouse being studied by TOP MEN.

An aside… does anyone wonder if Khan would have continued to be pals/buds with Kirk & Friends if he hadn’t been betrayed? It seemed like taking a phaser to the knee was the thing that pushed him over the edge and engaged his wrath. The bit at the end about killing off all the suboptimals seemed to come out of nowhere and more of a taunt against him. In the end, it looked to me like Khan’s pride drove him to try and smash up Starfleet in retaliation for their (through Kirk as a proxy) backstabbing. Everything else he did was, after all, designed specifically to save his family or take revenge against those he thought had killed his family.

#7

I thought so for a moment, but once he specifically mentioned that the Dreadnaught could be controlled by one person, I knew he’d go for it. He might not have been as fixated on the Enterprise without that, but he probably would have wanted to hold the Federation accountable for what Admiral Marcus did.

Speaking of Admiral Marcus, I’m embarrassed that it took me until the Enterprise “malfunctioned” to recognize the Undiscovered Country parallells they were bringing in. Guessing that’s set up for Trek 13. And to continue my stream of conciousness ramblings, I like what they did with the Klingons. Very similar to what came before with a slight twist. The new Bat’leths were cool too.

#8

Recall that it was discussed in the first movie that when Nero came back in time, they had diverged from what is considered cannon, and a lot may have changed since Nero had to wait 25 years for Spocktimus Prime to arrive…

#9

I’ve not seen the film yet. But I’m not surprised about Khan or the silly and placating way it was handled. I knew it was inevitable. I’ve already expressed my feelings about this film and gave my review way back when it was announced. Please see here. Yes. Call it what you will. Presumption. Prejudgment. Whatevers. yawn then and yawn now.

Let me explain where I’m coming from.

This past week, I was sitting in my silo (cubicle, if you will). Several folks stopped by and asked how excited I was about the nu Star Trek film. They would boast how much they loved the last one and how they were looking forward to seeing the nu one. I could not escape the Meh feeling I had. As each person asked and wondered if I was going to the midnight showing, etc. Once they actually finished talking and waited for my response. My response was always, “Yeah. I’ll probably see it but I’m not really excited about it.”

Their response, gaffaw

When I would begin to explain my rationale, glazed over eyes

They were disinterested. I don’t blame them. They’re excited and they think that I should also be. Why wouldn’t I? Folks are finally appreciating something I’ve loved my whole life.

So, am I jealous? Am I a snob? Do I want Star Trek all to myself? Am I being a TROLL and just bitchin’ for bitchin’ sake?

Perhaps. I am not above these things. Nor am I afraid to admit the foolishness of it. However, I cannot escape my feelings. Growing up I was mocked for my love of Star Trek. “Ha Ha, you have no friends and live in your mom’s basement. Geek. Nerd. Dork. Ha Ha.” Yeah, hilarious. Through GWC, I’ve met friends. They are well-educated, well-read, well-versed, and well-rounded people. I’ve watched the show I grew up loving with them and heard their critique and praise for it.

I’ve been trying to put my finger on what exactly is bothering me. I think I have. As I mentioned, I was mocked for my love of Star Trek and scifi. Now it is chic, geek chic. Yet, it still feels like mockery. “We” didn’t like it before, but now it’s cool. That is not true appreciation. That is not true admiration. That is not true understanding. That is still marginalizing.

Star Trek has gone from a ground-breaking and thought-provoking commentary to a whiz-bang, action-laden lens flare fest. (OK. That last bit about the lens flares was uncalled for.) It began with the TNG movies and continued with Voyager and Enterprise. Apart from the lens flares, the biggest critique of NuTrek was that it was Star Trek as Star Wars. I love both Star Trek and Star Wars. Separately they serve a role and purpose. Combined they lack substance. Abrams has tried to capture the majesty of both and just missed the mark. Not because of a lack of trying or talent but IMO because it shouldn’t be tried. The finished project has all the pieces but the soul is lacking. It feels like a mirror of its former self.

The opening scene of NuTrek had me bought in. It was eloquent and beautiful. It had heart. It had soul. It focused on the characters and their dire situation. Then the film was laced with nods and gags mixed in with dramatic moments. It was a fine line to ride. I think Abrams and crew did a good job riding it. For the sequel, I was hoping for a return to the basics of Star Trek. Instead, as I feared, they returned to their formula that worked in the first film. They repeated the mistakes of the TNG films. This may be just me but every TNG film followed the same plot as Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Action. Action. Action. Message. Action. Action. Action.

All that said, I think folks will love this nu film the same way they loved the previous film. All the Khan stuff, etc. will blow right by them. All the stuff added for the “fans” will get the appropriate chuckles. It’s a movie. It’s a pulse-pounding 2-hour lens flare fest. (Yeah. Uncalled for again. I’m bitter.) It’s entertainment and it should, hopefully, make money.

For me, it will still feel like a Star Trek mockumentary. I’m not dissin’. Most mockumentaries are good, great in fact. Spinal Tap, All You Need is Cash, Zelig, Spaceballs, Galaxy Quest, Family Guy’s Star Wars trilogy, etc.

I can honestly say, Casilda has succinctly voiced my opinion. As I said, I haven’t even seen the film but from what I’ve read I feel confident I’m in the Cas camp.

The dream is dead. It’s all about the Benjamins. I’m curious. Was there even 5 seconds focused on eugenics and the pros and KKKKHHHHAAAANNNNNSSSS!!!?!!

#10

Thanks for sharing this 'talos - I’ve been feeling the same way. Everyone has come up to me to be like, how was it!? And I’ve found myself saying, it was fun, but as someone who is really into Star Trek (in many ways thanks to you, and ThotFullGuy, and the rest of the Tuesday Trek re-watch gang - it wasn’t a property I was super into as a kid but it has great meaning for me now), there are problems. It also makes me think of one of my favorite feminist bloggers who talks about expecting more of things - and pushing back when one is ridiculed for not settling for what the world is no matter how “humorless” (or “trollish” or whatever adjective you choose to use) that makes people think you are.

This also really reminds me about one of the things I like about the GWC community in general - we can all like our different things in different ways and not play into the “geekier-than-thou” or geek e-peen comparison/competitions that you see in so many other areas. I hope that we can maintain that value system :slight_smile:

Was there even 5 seconds focused on eugenics and the pros and KKKKHHHHAAAANNNNNSSSS!!!?!!

First - you just made me giggle. But to your question - not that I remember. You have Benedict Cumberbatch’s character (I just have a hard time calling him Khan) talking about his superiority but the ethical background of how they (the Augments) came to be isn’t in the movie. At least not that I remember - but I’ve only seen it once, and to be fair, it was the middle of the night. :wink:

#11

Not as such that I remember, but there was a good amount about vengeance vs justice, militarization of Starfleet, preemptive war, and a small bit about temporal ethics. I’m not saying it was up there with the morals episodes, but it wasn’t a Michael Bay movie either.

#12

Just got home from the movie. I purposely stayed away from most media - except for some “leaked” pictures. And I’m not a huge Cumberbatch fan, so that wasn’t a big deal for me. Yes, “Khaaaaaaannnnn” was still cheesy for me. But I didn’t care! I enjoyed the hell out of the movie and if I had to pick between the 2 Khan movies, I prefer this one. I never liked the original Khan movie - it’s those damn ear bugs. I HATE those. :slight_smile:

#13

Still haven’t seen it but just got off the phone with my cousin who did. I told her about my apathy expressed in my previous post.

She told me about the allegorical themes presented in the film. Post 9-11 America and post Vulcan destruction Federation and how fear drives policy. I liked that. How govt and leaders justify any actions for the “good as they deem it” of the people.

She said she loved the ending and the hope of what is to come from this series. Kirk expresses his desire to explore what’s out there. She empathetically said, “That’s Star Trek.” I couldn’t argue with her.

She did say she wasn’t happy with some of the reviews saying, “Old guard fans of Star Trek won’t like it. They are encouraging the same mentality I expressed earlier. It’s a different time. Star Trek spoke to the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and on. It just had a different voice accustomed to the culture at the time.”

After the discussion, I was more excited about seeing the film.

#14

Just got back. Can’t believe no one mentioned “The Mudd incident” as an easter egg.

I wish we would have gotten better views of the “super warship”

Need to focus thoughts more. But I will say this: This is a character/dialog movie with action. I know people have complained about Abrams turning this into “action fest only” thing and “more like Star Wars” but really this is being it’s own thing and if new SW has this type of dialogue for the characters it’s going to be great. (just a random .02 there)

#15

So glad this thread has started! As soon as I had finished watching it, I wanted to know what fellow “GWC”'s think. I really enjoyed the film, but I wish they had a different villain then Khan. I felt like the end of the first movie kind of gave them a reset button to go in a different direction, and instead they end up paralleling Star Trek II. It was good, but not unique.

I did love the call out to “Section 31” as DS9 is my favorite. I hadn’t read any spoilers, but as soon as I saw the blood saving the little girl, I thought this bad guy is Khan. It was pretty obvious. This movie is a different flavor of Trek: action packed and a bit bloody. Makes me wish they were making more TV episodes. I watched two episodes of season 2 TNG on the big screen back in December to celebrate the Blue Ray release. It was “Measure of a Man” and the first Borg episode. The sets and clothes were so 80’s, but it was great to see it that way.

FrakinTalos, your comments on Star Trek make me think of Apple computers. I can remember when they weren’t cool, but my family still loved them. Now everyone has an apple gadget.

#16

Saw it last night at the megaplex.

No spoilers from me. My impression is:

Any resemblance to Star Trek is incidental. Fun summer action flick, but not the most trek like of fare.

<Phaser Sound>
Pew Pew … Pew Pew Pew.
</Phaser Sound>

Your mileage may vary.

OB

#17

Did anyone else notice that JJ Abrams seems to be treating warp like Star Wars hyperspace? Everyone seemed to think that once they went to warp, they would be totally safe and the idea of a ship chasing them seemed unthinkable. Sulu doesn’t say ‘we’re being pursued’, he says he’s getting ‘impossible readings’ like the idea of another ship catching them is just… the most ridiculous idea ever.

It was remarkable that the Enterprise could get from Qonos to Earth in just a couple minutes.

#18

I don’t have an Apple gadget… :stuck_out_tongue:

#19

I did make the comment… “wow Warp Speed sure looks PRETTY now”…but I’ll accept that to jumps in CGI and making things look prettier
in fact the only thing that did look odd to me…the Klingon…but as pointed out in the post-movie dinner…maybe it was just the one Klingon who looked odd and the others will be more what we expect…as for the short trip from Earth to the Klingon home world…maybe they’re nearby each other?? Other then that…I got nothin and dealt with it for story telling purpose…

I can also accept the fact that a phaser blast is fired at light speed, since it’s an energy weapon and a torpedo is launched at a slower speed, making such weapons kinda useless in high speed Warp…and maybe this ship was the first that was able to fire in Warp (no ships in ToS did, and I’m sure they didn’t in Next Gen and DS9…I think they may have in Voyager, but I can’t remember), I can make sense of that :slight_smile:

I loved the nods to the original stuff though… Klingons and Honor being mentioned… “Captain Sulu” (ohhh MY!)…Tribbles…the Mudd incident…its like they know they got all this stuff they know we have questions about but it’s impossible to cram a TV series into two movies, so they’re doing all they can…I also like how they tried to deal and acknowledge a rook out of the academy getting hot-shot’ed into the captain’s seat of the best ship in the fleet…I’d have liked to seen Kirk “suffer” a bit as XO first but then you lose Spock for some time…

All in all I LOVED this movie…it’s a great ride, and homage to the original while standing on its own too and I will try like hell to see it again this week!!!

The more I think about it now, the more excited I am to see JJ do Star Wars too…holy smokes!

#20

I thought it was a better crafted movie than the previous film. Same rule applies. Both are great movies as standalone blockbuster movies but lacking as additions to the Star Trek ethos. And superficially I still flinch when Chris Pine says, “Mr. Sulu do this or that.” He still hasn’t earned the chair. On the other hand, that is one of the main themes of the movie; he really hasn’t earned the chair.

Many of the by now obligatory twists doing the variations of a alternate universe theme were impressively clever. Good for a grin and even a laugh but… this is the second film and the schtick is getting old. The problem becomes one of half distraction, as in you unconsciously waiting for the next one to occur. No matter how well done they are, they are still fan service gimmicks. In total, they take away a significant amount of time that could be invested in better presenting a story. A truly clean reboot has never stopped being a good idea.

Starfleet is back to being a paper tiger, even seeing the return of hawkish Admirals bent on conquest. When you want something done the Enterprise has to do it. That was fast. Didn’t they just graduate? Hard to knock tradition since each of the series and films has inevitably made the Starfleet look dumb.

The USS Vengeance is not your dad’s USS Excelsior. A bigger ship with more weapons… is a deadlier ship as it should be. I admit it, I enjoyed that pointed diss at STIII: Search for Spock for too cutely side stepping the realities of naval warfare. They even had Scotty aboard, again, sabotaging the super ship’s innards. Great twist, great alternate universe fake out.

Both fist fights of Kirk and Spock were pointedly ineffectual. A punch is not always the answer to conflict resolution. I liked that someone finally brought this subtext back from the old series. I liked that protracted criticism of Kirk. He’s seat of the pants reactive. He admits," I don’t know what I’m doing." Nevermind that in the end, seat of the pants wins the day anyway! That may be the biggest inside joke of Into Darkness: did Kirk really learn anything?

Maybe my lasting take is they tried very, very hard to best Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan. The script couldn’t be tighter. But Kirk and Khan do not know each other. They have no history. You can only create so much grudge in the span of a single movie. This isn’t an alternate universe variation but a completely different story. Khan’s campaign of vengeance, Kirk’s fear and rage in the classic movie remain memorable. The chair must be earned. KHHHAAANNNN! must be earned. There are no shortcuts. It was commercially smart to tackle Khan but it was too soon in the new franchise I think.