Safer with Kane, then without?

Television, Movies Games and Books BSG-2003
#1

A few days ago I sat down to wacth Ressurrection ship Part two, and somthing Ron Moore said in the commontary is bothering me. He tells u s to really think about what Starbuck is saying…that maybe they were better off with Kane

And, like the proud geek that I am, I sat there for long time wandering if that was true. But, the only thing I could come up with is that they are better off without Kane…even in season three they are better off without Kane.

Yeah , Adama has gone soft. He lets people get away with things. But in the end, who would you rather fight in a war with? I 'd want to go with Adama. I mean, I’m sure that he has made one decidtion that we all at some point think is wrong, but at least there is always someone on the ship allowd to disaggree. The men, for the most part our loyal. The men under Kane were like robots, who raped prisoners . If Kane told them to shoot themselves out of an airlock…some of them would do it lol (okay not really,b ut you get the idea hehe0

#2

I don’t know Emily, I think some of those Marines under her command would blow themselves out an airlock on command. They were like human centurions. :wink:

Then again…hmmm… (Alert: Sean random wandering ahead)

I wonder if Kane forced or trained the Marines to be more like Centurions so she could have weapons at her disposal that were just like the Cylons had. It seems a very Kane thought. That she wanted attack dogs at her fingertips fits into my image of her. I wonder.

(Sean random wandering over)

But to answer your question, is the fleet better off with her or without her, hmmm I will have to say without. Yes she could get things done but IMHO I think she would only cause more and more suffering and strife had she been allowed to live. Kane didn’t back down from anyone and I think it would have come to all out human war had she had the chance and been pushed to it.

It’s too bad too, I always thought she was cute. :wink:

#3

I always thought that Starbuck was right – but not in their particular circumstance. Starbuck’s always been a tactical thinker, depending on others for strategy, and taking that into account her statement made sense to me.

Fisk, for example, and even Cain an a larger level must have been somewhat useful previously when they were part of a fleet that controlled and tempered their base faults. One might imagine that minus the excess power granted to her in the post-extermination crisis, Cain was an efficient and valuable part of the fleet – and even ruthless in a heroic way in time of war.

That’s what Starbuck sees in her, I think. That and a person who hasn’t yet completely given up the fight. It’s not until later that Starbuck is finally given the opportunity to fulfill her promise and return to Caprica – something that’s very, very important to her on numerous levels.

But with those safeguards removed, Fisk becomes a greedy under-the-table-dealing bastard, and Cain becomes a crazy tyrant, doing far more harm than good.

IMHO, if Cain had been a part of the fleet from the beginning as a subordinate to Adama, she’d indeed prove valuable – flaws and all. But if I was in the fleet – especially as a civilian – I’d feel much safer with her gone.

Of course, they’ll pay for not having her later. Count on it. But sometimes the “best” course of action isn’t really a good course of action. And that’s doubly true in BSG.

I never knew you had a thing for Ro!

#4

You know, this is an interesting distinction that needs to be made. Your comment answered only half of what I think is really a two-part issue, Sean. First, is the fleet better off/safer (call it what you will) with or without Kane? Secondly, is the human race better off/safer with or without Kane?

With respect to the former, I definitely have to agree that Kane on some level would always pose a threat to the fleet. The latter, on the other hand, becomes a much trickier issue. You first have to ask yourself what “safer” or “better off” means. If you’re talking about having a happy lovefest in space where everyone gets along and some semblance of democracy is maintained, then yes, they’re better off without her:).
But is this definition of the safety of the human race any different than the safety of the fleet? Not really. What we really have to address is strictly the preservation of the species; and let’s face it, if your primary concern is preventing the annihilation of mankind, there may come a point when comforts like a civilian fleet take a backseat. From this perspective, I think Kane’s usefulness is something that needs to be pondered further.

#5

Well, Thank God I’m not the only one fasinated by the question.

Now that I thin about it, Kane might have at least helped the human race survive. Would she actualy let Beltar, for exsample, settle on New Caperica? Or would she had said “screw this,” shot him, and brought the fleet forward? I fyou ask me, the diea that they can even take their time and relax on any planet is stupid. To let their garud down is even more follish. Of course , they can’t be blamed, I mean, I would have done the same thing.

I’m not saying she woudl be useless. In fact, she probably could’vedone alot of great things for the Galactica crew.

One big difference that Adama’s people and Kanes people, was that Adamas crew always seems to second guess themselves. I think Starbuck respects Kane for never second guessing. I, becuase Starbuck rfeally doesn’t second guess. If you tell her to killa guy and burry him, and fifshe is loyal to you, trust me, she will do it. Apolo and Helo on the other hand, are willing to disaggree, and second guess. Righ or wrong, many of Adama’s crew will undermine Adamas loyality. Adama many times lets them off the hook 9how many things has Helo gotten away with? lol), but Kane would shoot them straght away.

But in some respects, to me, maybe second guessing is a good thing. I mean, Apolo at the end of season three was willing to say that Beltar was not the only gulty person. Maybe thats a good thing.

Apologizes for the rant, this is really jsut a mess of ideas put on my comptuer lol

#6

#7

You know, I was thinking about double-checking the spelling of her name before posting, but then thought, “I bet they didn’t bother to change it in the least from her killed-his-own-brother Bible namesake.” Glad it worked out. :slight_smile:

#8

You know, my sister has a cross country coach who looks like Cain, and acts like her too. Maybe I can find a pic.

Back on topic:

I would feel much safer with Cain dead, at least then I’d know I would be killed for stopping an attempted rape.

#9

Let’s not forget that Cain pressed-ganged a bunch of civilians into the military, killed some women and children, and then abandoned whoever was left to the Cylon(z). None of these are the actions of soldier. If Cain would have assassinated Adama, it seems almost certain that Laura, the legal President of the Colonies and Cain’s boss, would have been her next target. Then, she would have repeated her prior actions with the RTF and stripped and abandoned the civvie fleet to bring Pegasus and Galactica up to full combat readiness (thus dooming the human race).

#10

I find it so interesting that this question is still around. I imagine it is something that the writers of the show struggled with as well. You can various bits of evidence they used to back their thinking. The clearest one of course is during Ressurection Ship

Commander William Adama: Its not enough to survive… One has to be worthy of survival.

This sums up the philosophy of the show. Is Cain’s method effective? Absolutely. It is absolutely effective. Could one make the argument that following that path the human race has a better chance of long term survival? Possibly.

Is it right? Probably not. If a group of people have lost their humanity, if they have forgotten what it means to have freedom, the right to excerise choice, what do they have left? I’ll tell you: Lord of the Flies on a battleship.

Surviving is not enough. Sacrificing one’s soul for the greater good is ineffective if the sacrifice itself smears and destroys that which is good in ourselves.

In my own opinion, Cain was an excellent leader. She was not an excellent Commander and certainly not an excellent Admiral. She rose too fast and wasn’t given the opportunity to learn the lessons only time and experience would provide. The proverbial rug was pulled out from her and she was forced to make a hard choice. And another. And another. Soon rationalization took over. This had to be done. For the greater good. Kill families, abandon the civilian fleet stripping it to an inch of its life, physically, mentally and sexually torture a prisoner repeatedly over and over, murder your first officer for questioning you…

I believe this is what Razor will explore in depth. In BSG fashion, I am sure there will be no clear lines, no black and white, no absolutes. By the end we will respect her, hate her, admire her strength and wish her harm. In the end we will emphasize with her and ultimately not ask the question “Would we be safer with Cain?”

…you will ask the question, “Would I have done any better in this situation?”

#11

Here’s the thing with Caine that I can’t let go:

She Doesn’t Get “IT”.

The war is over. She talked about counter offensives, about impressed military service, about taking the fight to the cylons rather than trying to keep what was left of humanity alive.

I think Caine would have been happy to send the Pegasus to it’s end if that was the consquence of the tactical strategy to “win the war”. Adama (and Roslin) by contrast was able to recognize that things were “different” that survival was the top priority, not “winning”.

Everything she did made sense from a tactical perspective. You can’t fight effectively defending a civilian fleet. But you can successfully defend that fleet if you focus on defensive fighting. For Caine, however, that would have meant dealing with the fact that the war was lost.

She was delussional, and in my mind, a bit sociopathic. She seemed far too cavalier about leaving the women and children of the civilian fleet to their fates. (or am I remembering wrong?)

Rorlins

#12

Rorlins, I think you are spot on. I’ll even push it a step further: remember at the end of the mini with Adama and Roslin fighting over what they should do? Adama said something to the effect, “We are at war” to which Roslin responded, “The War’s over Commander. We lost.”

Without Roslin Adama would have proceeded down the exact same path as Cain. Roslin is the one who snapped him to his senses and made him realize exactly the situation they were in. Cain had no Roslin. Cain was suddenly given absolute power with no check and balance. Cain’s ultimate sin is trying to do the right thing in a void with no center.

#13

I still think, from the perspective of only worrying about the preservation of the human race,Adama might lack the ability to make certain tough decisions that might need to be made. Honestly, I think Tigh is the only person left that can.

#14

What’s scary is that when she DID have a civilian check on her absolute power, she rejected that check.

Cain might have lived if Roslin had found a way to promote Adama past her and appealed to Cain’s sense of duty to the colonies rather then letting it come to the violent heads it did.

Rorlins

#15

I think they would have been much safer with Kane.

When I here interviews with people in Iraq, most of them seem to say that they were much safer under Sadam then they are now. To quote Rummy “freedom is messy”

This comes down to what I think alot of what BSG is all about. The balance of survival and security with civil liberties and humanity. Which is what many of the western governments are dealing with post 9-11, Madrid, and London.

They would have been safer, but at what cost, would they have deservied it?

Just from a Starbuck point of view… I think at times her life is such a mess, sometimes it might be nice for her to know there is someone there who is going to make sure things are ok = safe. I think it was the first season when she told Lee that he needed to force one of his pilots (her) to take her meds (stims). She was saying that at times, what she realy needs not a friend like Lee, or a father like Papa Dama, but someone who can keep her grounded.

#16

For some reason, I have this slight strange sympathy for Cain. I know that she’s bad news and that she did horrible things, but I can’t help but feel sorry for her. It’s like Starbuck said in her eulogy: she was all alone after the attack and did everything in her power to survive.

Of course, she went to far and kept stepping over the line. I really can’t wait for Razor, because I hope it sheds some light on what things were actually like for the Pegasus that made Cain act the way she did.

Or it could turn out that she’s just evil. :wink:

#17

“He that would give up even a little essential liberty for a little security would deserve neither.” Franklin.

While I don’t generally like this quote as I often think it’s misused and misquoted, I do think that there is a certain wisdom to that as well. I think he would take great exception to Cain’s behavior just as Adama did.

Interestingly, while life under Sadam might have been “safer” for some, I think we can agree that it was decidedly NOT safe for other people, specifically people who openly disaggreed with him. That is the problem with dictatorships and the evolution from one to a democracy. I would submit that comparing life with Cain and life without her to pre-and post-Sadam Iraq is a poor analogy.

In the end, how long would YOU be safe under Cain’s leadership? Sure “the fleet” would be safer, but how long would YOU be?

At some point she would decide that people who couldn’t “Keep up” the work load were a detriment and used up too many rations. Airlock those that can’t work 12 hour days. Then perhaps she decides there are too many women unable to bear children any more. They’re a waste of resources so line them up at the airlock. Then perhaps she might decide that those children who don’t show the appitude to fit in the fleet are a poor investment. Step up, kiddo.

She established early on that she did not respect the basics of life. So while I will conceed that the FLEET would be safer with Cane at the helm, that You or Me would not be.

Rorlins

#18

Would they be safer from outside forces like the cylons, definitely? I found replacement commanders of the Pegasus were not as effective as her, even lee. Would Kane have let half her crew go to the planet leaving their ship almost unprotected, I wouldn’t think so, nor if she were in command would she let Adama.

That being said she was a major threat to personal freedoms and liberties of the fleet, in fact not just freedoms and liberties, but their very lives. So again the safety of the average person was at increased risk. Now which threat would have been greater, from internal conflict or external attack? I’m not sure we could make that call but if it was external than Kane being alive would be beneficial and if it’s internal than, its the other way around.

Now if I had to make a call, I would choose they were safer, marginally, for the simple fact Cylons kill, for there owns species advantage, Kane kills for her’s, and there human (Well most of them anyhow)

but not nearly as happy.

#19

One of Cain’s faults/problems might be that she was forced to make a few brutal decisions at the outset of the war (like jumping into nowhere), and they worked. So it’s easy to keep making them. During her briefing with Adama and Roslin, as Cain told the story of her intial loss of hundreds of crewmembers during the initial attack, THAT really seems to have bothered her, she is almost in pain saying it, she almost can’t even talk about it. She may have been so wrapped up in her command that she kind of snapped because of this and decided that no matter what, she was going to protect her ship and her remaining crew, at all costs…
Or, she could just be a jerk.

#20

Would they be safer from the cylons? I mean, it was Cain who said the first thing she wanted was go go back to Caperica and beat up the Cylons. If this was reall her plan then well…boom