S04E08 - Sine Qua Non Episode Discusion <spoilers>

Television, Movies Games and Books BSG-2003
#41

The episode (ok just to be safe spoiler tags)

[SPOILER]isn’t as bad as some might make it out to be, but it’s not excellent.

They did kill Natalie, the bastards. Or rather, one psychotic cylon momma.

Lee is hot in the new red shirt.

This was definitely a make side remarks to husband episode…

I enjoyed the exchanges between Tigh and Adama but I couldn’t figure out the Romo/Lee bit too much - it’s like they were trying to do more with the truth/faking it bit but it just didn’t work this time.

Helo’s on the baseship… bad news I fear.
[/SPOILER]
And that’s all I have for now. I’m sure there’ll be more once more people have seen it.

#42

Correct. It was awful. It was like they were writing filler for an essay exam in school when you do not have a clue what the question means. It was LAZY.

How about this - WHY DOES ADAMA HAVE TO “RELINQUISH” COMMAND at all? Why not - Saul, you’re a mess personally - you know #6 and a baby and all - assuming it’s really yours, but at least you appear to have stopped drinking. Take over while I’m gone. Hopefully, I’ll be back. If not, try to do a better job running the show than after I was shot.

And the promotion. Was it a double rank promotion - right over commander to admiral? And why is any promotion necessary at all? It’s stupid and unnecessary to any plot development. What, all in the fleet will breath a sigh of relief with Tigh in charge because he’s an admiral?

Unless of course in all these disappointing plot lines, there are clues about what is to come. Naw - it still was lously.

#43

It was like they desperately sought for a reason to bring Romo back and everything was tailored to fit that need in total misregard for the overall story arc.

How about this - WHY DOES ADAMA HAVE TO “RELINQUISH” COMMAND at all? Why not - Saul, you’re a mess personally - you know #6 and a baby and all - assuming it’s really yours, but at least you appear to have stopped drinking. Take over while I’m gone. Hopefully, I’ll be back. If not, try to do a better job running the show than after I was shot.

That baby totally came from left field. Six pregnant from Tigh? After 2 years of frakking with Baltar on Caprica and she didn’t get pregant then? Sperm does not discriminate between love and a sexy time.

And the promotion. Was it a double rank promotion - right over commander to admiral? And why is any promotion necessary at all? It’s stupid and unnecessary to any plot development. What, all in the fleet will breath a sigh of relief with Tigh in charge because he’s an admiral?

Don’t get me started - Tigh would already be the ranking officer as Colonel if Adama is gone. The funny thing is: now that Adama has resigned his commission (which I suppose he has done), Tigh doesn’t even have to let him back in :smiley:

#44

I could go on for pages too. But mull over this, even with the lame episode - the title. So, what in the whole mish mash lines up with the idea of “that without which there is nothing”? As you no doubt know - sine qua non is often used to refer to “indispensible” persons.

The only thing I can come up with is Roslin. In addition to his feelings for her Adama Knows that she is the essential person in the fleet to finding Earth.

On an unrelated note would somebody please explain 2 things to me that I have raised before only to have them vanish into the void:

  1. How come those responsible for the safety of the fleet show ZERO concern about the identities of the remaining 5 Cylons they know (or at least Bill Adama knows) to exist?

  2. Why has RDM’s reference in his podcast of a week of so ago to the Final Four prompted so little interest?

#45

[QUOTE=Old Timer;38936]

The only thing I can come up with is Roslin. In addition to his feelings for her Adama Knows that she is the essential person in the fleet to finding Earth.

[QUOTE]

[spoiler]

Absolutely!! This was, I think, the staggering emotional realisation for Bill Adama here in this episode. Sine Qua Non. I loved this episode, and can agree only with the criticism that Romo’s scenes were a tad uneasily written - still a nod to a popular character who made a big impression in just a few episodes. Thumbs up. Tigh and Adama completely saw eye to eyes (sorry) after their bust up. They settled their score as it were. Adama left Tigh with the implications of his ‘relationship’ with Six just as he expected Tigh to respect his implications as he followed his heart, and his gut instinct, into the viper to wait for Laura Roslin. This was brilliant writing! There was nothing that rang false for me in these Bill/Tigh scenes. Bill Adama is done patching up the broken ship and must strike out alone at this point. It just made me love Edward James Olmos as an actor even more, if possible.

Lee becomes president - it was clunky and inevitable but hey, we’re there now. The episode was, in my opinion, fantastic. Like a master game of chess, three pieces have been moved into unexpected and potentially deadly positions.

[/spoiler]

#46

[QUOTE=RomoCousin;38942][QUOTE=Old Timer;38936]

The only thing I can come up with is Roslin. In addition to his feelings for her Adama Knows that she is the essential person in the fleet to finding Earth.

[spoiler]

Absolutely!! This was, I think, the staggering emotional realisation for Bill Adama here in this episode. Sine Qua Non. I loved this episode, and can agree only with the criticism that Romo’s scenes were a tad uneasily written - still a nod to a popular character who made a big impression in just a few episodes. Thumbs up. Tigh and Adama completely saw eye to eyes (sorry) after their bust up. They settled their score as it were. Adama left Tigh with the implications of his ‘relationship’ with Six just as he expected Tigh to respect his implications as he followed his heart, and his gut instinct, into the viper to wait for Laura Roslin. This was brilliant writing! There was nothing that rang false for me in these Bill/Tigh scenes. Bill Adama is done patching up the broken ship and must strike out alone at this point. It just made me love Edward James Olmos as an actor even more, if possible.

Lee becomes president - it was clunky and inevitable but hey, we’re there now. The episode was, in my opinion, fantastic. Like a master game of chess, three pieces have been moved into unexpected and potentially deadly positions.

[/spoiler]

Well GR - shows you what we know. Zip. But then the Germans and the Swedes (yes, an admission) are known for their lack of passion and attention to detail. Perhaps we need the passion of a man from Dublin to clue us back in to the bigger themes.

But, I still think they shoe horned Romo back into the plot with some crummy writing and don’t get all the promoting Tigh stuff.

#47

I’d have to agree with you on this. Adama goes from reading to Roslin to being madly in love with her. They never even set up any rendezvous point type story. The Adama being betrayed makes sense because of Athena, Tyrol, Tigh, and maybe to some degree Lee. In Hero command went to Lee, not Tigh. Even if he’s not in the military they could have made him commander of both the military and civilian government. By the time they reach Earth nobody will really care because it will be a bunch of red shirts and Admiral Gaeta.

#48

[spoiler] Ugh…is putting Tigh in charge of the fleet really the best choice he could make? I think Athina–no Hotdog-- no starbuck–no Jake would be a better choice then Tigh, in this climate of politics problem

Another question. If Adama “can’t live” without Roslin…how is he goin gto deal when she dies? Let’s face it, she is going to die, and I’ll bet you anything, its going to be at the wrost possible time (around episode 18 or 19). What’s he going to do when she’s gone?

I’m being hard on Adama here, yeah, yeah I am. I’m going to be hard on him when I call into gwc this week. I’ll be hard on him next week, and the week after. He is in charge of 40000 people. When Roslin goes, how sane will he be?

Hey, do you guys think putting Hara int he brig with Athina is a way to keep Athina out of the plot for two episodes? lol[/spoiler]

#49

Wow, some serious hate going on in here.
Definitely not the best episode ever, but I still enjoyed it. The episode did have some problems.

[spoiler]1. Caprica pregnant—well, RDM did say the final five were fundamentally different from the seven, so there you go.

  1. I actually see no problem with Tigh in command. I would rather see him in there any day of the week, before Athena, Hot Dog, Gaeta, starbuck, or whoever <-------a thousand times more than any of these. Helo would probably be the more stable choice, but he’s not around. Tigh is the best they have available at the moment, and he is actually an effective tactician, and leader, but his problem is that he can’t coordinate with the civilians like Adama could. Also, I think that with Lee as the president, the two would actually make an effective pair.

  2. Lee as president—I don’t have a problem with it, but this was one part of the episode that wasn’t quite as good as it could’ve been. Everyone knew it was going to happen, but they dragged it out.

  3. Adama pulling off a Paul Atradies, and going off into the sunset to die(or wait for Roslin)—Very out of character. Frankly, Adama should just leave Tigh or Helo in charge, permanently, because anyone willing to abandon the welfare of 36,000 lives for the life of one person, no matter what she means to you, is no leader.

5.Athena in the brig—no problem there. She killed what was basically an ambassador whose welfare was the BSG’s responsibility. What are they going to do? Give her a cookie? Sorry, Em, disagree with you on this one big time. She should get a second chance, but first she has to face the music.

  1. Romo and his cat—I haven’t rewatched the episode yet, but either Romo has a head-cat, or there was some really craaaapy editing done on this episode.

7.They killed Pike!!! YOU BASTARDS!!![/spoiler]

#50

We’re on the same page with this episode except for this part. Cylons can’t get pregnant without love and the writers did briefly show Six expressing love for Tigh (though maybe with Ellen’s face). I can go with the idea that Tigh has gotten so mixed up inside that he is sleeping with Six. Maybe she loved Baltar too, of course maybe Baltar is completely infertile!

As for Adama, he did mention he might come back to command when handing over everything to Tigh, but still the whole thing is very far-fetched.

But they’ve been planning this…here is a quote from Battlestarwiki.org from the Searider Falcon book:

[COLOR=“Yellow”]The raft was not as seaworthy as I’d hoped. The waves repeatedly threatened to swamp it. I wasn’t afraid to die. I was afraid of the emptiness that I felt inside. I couldn’t feel anything. And that’s what scared me. You came into my thoughts. I felt them. It felt good.[/COLOR]

Not sure if this is the passage read out loud an episode or two back, but I think it describes Adama’s situation at the end of the episode in the raptor.

#51

ok…i really dont understand some of the negativity here

1 - Lee as president . He was…in my opinion, the only real choice here . He is young, energetic, an idealist . Romo is right: he is a shining beacon of hope, something this fleet needs alot of . For years now, they have been led by so-called pragmatist (Roslin) or by con-men( Baltar) . The colonials are on the verge of extinction, not because of the cylons, but because most of them has lost hope . Lee can be the leader that bring some hope to this situation.

2- Romo goin nuts . Look . He is the symbol of the people of the fleet . everything was taken from him . He has been stuck in a metal tube for 3 years now, with only running and more running from death as his daily bread . And of course, the cat was a metaphor for his lost hope in the future of mankind. Now, because of Lee, giving him hope (in the form of Jake), he can be Romo again.

3 - Adm Adama goin nuts of Roslin seemingly being lost . Gee some people have short term memory . Remember season one and “you can’t go home again”? Even Roslin knew what he could do and how he felt . He has lost so much and now, he seems he has lost the woman he loves . Yes . Loves . Oh, my God!!!..we cant have that!..thsi is BSG!!!..where only death and misery are cool! . I am sorry…but some of the attitude toward the more positive feelings in life when they show up in this show is starting to irrate the hell out of me . So he does something quite extreme like giving up command when he realize he cant be trusted with power when it comes to finding Roslin . That, in my opinion, was wonderful, romantic and noble of him. And yes, i believe in character.

4 - Tigh in command . Well. Adama said it . he is not the same man he was . He’s changed . he is now a better man then he ever was . Greater. Stronger . He might even be a better admiral theses days than Adama . He as been throught fire, and he as come out harder than steel.

5 - Yes, Six is pregnant. RDM has said that theses cylons are different than the others . He never said that cylons could not procreate togheter . They could not because they did not feel love for each other . And i do believe these two…somehow…will find love with each other . Tey alrwady are. The child is proof of that .

6 - Nathalie . that is the only part that puzzle me so far . When you kill a character, i think you should do it because it brings something more to the storyline . Lile when they found Pike in the raptor, his death brought a sense of dread and despair to the fleet and espacially Adama concerning those on the baseship . So i am still reserving judgement to see what Nathalie’s death brings

that is all . All in All a good episode . Not perfect, but still high quality .

Sorry about some of the rantings

#52

He also said he questioned Tigh’s judgment and competence and then turned around and gave him a battlestar, and the lives of over 30,000 people. This doesn’t jive. Maybe over the course of an episode or two a mood swing like this would work, but not in the same hour.
He orders Starbuck to send some pilots on a near-suicide mission, then realizes the error of his ways and goes out to wait for Roslin.

I don’t disagree with your explanations on how these shifts can occur, but I don’t agree that they should all be written into one episode.

Regardless of the quality of this script, Olmos and Hogan’s acting was superb I thought.

#53

I think your reaction to this episode will depend on your assesement of Adama’s mental state.

When he confronted Tigh and when he gave Starbuck her orders, he just was not thinking right . He let his feelings for laura completly blind him to some realities . He does have a tendency to that from time to time. Again, remember when Starbuck was lost in season one (you can’t go home again) . He needed to be call on his bull before he was ready to move on . Then remember the begining of season 2, when he felt betrayed by Laura. He needed to get called by Dee before he saw reason . And he needed his bacon saved by Lee, at the cost of the Pegasus, when he attempted that very heroic, but a bit suicidal rescue attempt from New Caprica .

So, in this episode, he needed his bull called again . Now yes…Tigh also needed calling on that front…he it was . With Fists . Both men needed to get popped a bit for their own good .

So , he realized he was endangering the fleet and his men because of what he felt, and he was being too harsh on Tigh for he so-called weakness . So he make the only (to his knowledge) sane choice . He gave command to Tigh.

I am just puzzled on how this would have been better over a few episodes than just this one . i feel what needed to be said was quite well contain in this episode.

#54

I can understand why people might not like this episode, but I really enjoyed it. Perhaps it’s because I’ve suspended my disbelief on a couple points:

  1. There’s not much time left to wrap up the story so some developments must happen more quickly than they normally would.
  2. The stress of the colonial’s situation has finally wore them down, hence Romo, Tigh and Adama’s erratic behavior. These are people at the end of their ropes.

I had one thought throughout the episode, “Who can Adama count on?” Roslin and Helo are gone, the Chief has been demoted, Lee is onboard Colonial One, Athena is in the brig, Tigh is in the brig too :rolleyes:, Gaeta is in sickbay, and the jury is still out on Starbuck. No wonder he can’t think clearly.

#55

Hi all, I figure it’s about time I de-lurk and actually post for a change, so here goes.

  1. In general, I wouldn’t say I hated this episode (I can’t say I’ve actually hated any episode of BSG, Black Market included) but compared to the last two which were amazing…well it just didn’t live up to what I’d hoped it to be. Most of the plot developments made some sort of sense, but as a few have said before, it just seemed unfinished. Heck, maybe it’s just me but even the music and direction seemed off somehow. I’ll guess I’ll have to give the episode another watch and if it still hits a bit of a sour note, I’ll just leave it off my re-watch list, no harm, no foul.

  2. Overall, I really like how Adama and Roslin’s relationship has been built up this season, from the spat they had with him drunk and her hair falling out to the little scene at the end of Faith. (btw, good call on the Searider falcon stuff Radio Picon)

  3. Dee’s blink-and-you’ll-miss-her appearances are getting kind of silly.

  4. If Jake is a ‘hero of the resistance’ does that mean everyone in the fleet knows about Gaeta being the mole on New Caprica? That Tigh, Anders, and the Chief were the leaders of the resistance, etc?

  5. Add me to the list of people with the wtf reaction to the Caprica6 situation. Maybe she loved Baltar but Baltar didn’t really, truly love her back?

I suppose in summary, it was an ok episode. Even if this installment itself wasn’t the greatest, they seem to be building towards something really big and wonderful, and to get there, an episode like this was necessary.

Also, I saw someone do a version of this on the skiffy boards and thought it was amusing, but after this episode I couldn’t help but make a version of my own:

see the poster it’s based on here http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2205/2386823306_ece036bd9f.jpg

#56

not that Lee is a great mind when it comes to military tactics, but he is great at holding a group together.

and i think you have a great point here. It would have been Great for Lee, President wannabe to be called back to Duty and leaving Zarek being the President after all. And we can have a entire Lee v.s. Zarek chess game.

#57

Did well holding his little marriage group together.

#58

i thought a group is 3 people or more… IYKWIM

#59

just i quick note, i have more beef with the editing of this episode. I don’t think the story is that bad if they edited right. ok maybe the Romo part is stretching it a little, but with good editing i think it can be easier to swallow.

Adama Tigh eye to eyes part was great. It shows you what their relationship is like. They don’t need to pull rank on each other. They are tighter than brothers ,and I love that.

But the command thing is odd…

I tried to be as vague as possible so there is not need for spoiler tag.

my fingers crossed for a better edited version when it comes time for US airing.

#60

Heh, yeah, he still failed with not even a full group.