River Song's identity?

Television, Movies Games and Books Doctor Who
#1

Not sure if this has been debated much, I just finished watching an episode and it got me thinking.

In “The Girl in the Fireplace”, written by current Doctor Who show-runner Steven Moffat, the Doctor appears to Renette at various times in her life, believed to be an imaginary friend until he appears to her again after she’s grown up some which of course I likened to Doctor 11’s introduction to Amy Pond. Then later when the Doctor mind melds (or whatever you call it) with her she comes to know him better than most because she is able to enter his memories when he enters hers.

Now, River claims to know the Doctor’s true name, going so far as to claim she knows him better than anyone in her first appearance in “Silence in the Library.” She (River) makes mention in the two parter “Time of Angels” and “Flesh and Stone” that while she and the Doctor keep meeting, they do so out of chronological order, something that the episode “Blink” and “The Girl in the Fireplace” show us is a one of those things that Steven Moffat likes to play with.

Finally, the cracks in time of 11th Doctors first season are connecting pieces of the universe that aren’t supposed to be connected, much like the time windows of “The Girl in the Fire Place”. The Doctor mentions in that episode and several episodes of the latest season that that sort of thing could destroy the universe.

Finally, at the end of the episode “The Girl in the Fireplace” though she dies, in the letter she leaves for the Doctor she says “reason says I shall not see you again but I have learned not to listen to reason.” The Doctor can’t cross his own timeline but we know he felt extreme guilt for not making it back to her, so perhaps by accident he returns to her before her death, like maybe the exact moment before she’s supposed to die. She was 43, just about the right age. He knows how to cure her. See where I’m going with this?

So perhaps, and of course I can’t possibly guess at the mechanics of it obviously, somehow Madam de Pompadour is River Song, through a combination of time windows (which is how she’s so future-tech savvy) and TARDIS travel. Just a thought.

#2

Fascinating theory. To take that idea a bit further perhaps the Doctor returns to her just before she’s about to die and in order to save her he has to give a portion of his life to her. And as a result it causes a Time Lord-esque regeneration in to Song.

#3

I think you’re on to something. That’s the best answer I think possible unless Moffat’s holding a trump card (and it better be a doozy of a card to beat your conclusion). I guess we’ll find out next season hopefully.

#4

I really like this theory, not least because “Girl in the Fireplace” is my favourite episode. You’re totally right, Moffat like to play with time and I’d love to believe that this has been brewing for all this time.

Saying that through, since this new series has begun I’ve been convinced that River is in fact Amy Pond after the cracks in time have been resolved. There are certain similarities in the way the two characters are written, and the way they interact with each other, that seem to indicate some sort of link.

I don’t think we’re going to get an answer for some time yet though :wink:

#5

Well all of the evidence I cited is circumstantial of course, and I have no proof of anything either obviously, but I don’t think River is Amy either, she chose Rory over the Doctor for one thing but I also just don’t see any similarities myself.

I appreciate the vote of confidence from MovieDude. And from what I’ve heard/read this upcoming season is the season we learn River’s identity. I’m hoping Moffat doesn’t string this along much longer. I’m too excited.

#6

Both our theories are completely circumstantial of course, and both as valid as each other. I think dismissing my theory because Amy chose Rory is a little flawed though, as The Doctor chose Rose, and Madame de Pompadour chose the French King - maybe both were due to circumstance, but wasn’t Amy’s ultimate decision swayed by circumstance in “Amy’s Choice”? Obviously Auton Rory’s sacrifice in “The Big Bang” may change this, but maybe the very fact that Rory is an Auton could change things.

I think that both of our theories have merit, and I especially like your thinking as its some thing I haven’t heard/read before, and I’m definitely looking forward to how is all pans out :slight_smile:

#7

I apologize, I wasn’t dismissing your theory, simply stating my opinion of it. Amy choosing Rory looked like an irreversible direction to me, as in: eventually they’ll both leave and a new companion will take their place. Or, when River finally shows up, Amy and Rory, who know her future and their future history together, will respectfully move along. Also, Amy being River is a simple explanation, and I’m not so sure Moffat does anything simple.

Unfortunately, the likely explanation seems to me that River may be a character we’ve never seen before. There won’t be any mystery to solve because any mystery associated with the character will be fabricated as unseen backstory, like many things in the Doctor’s past since the show came back (Time War, all the photos of Doctor 9 in “Rose”, etc…).

#8

Yep, that’s the biggest problem I have with my theory!

#9

Ok here’s another grenade i’ll throw in. Let’s say Moffat isn’t that simple. Fine, np there. Where does that leave us. It could very well be that River and Amy are not one in the same but are very much closer then anyone realizes. What if instead of being the same person they were say Mother and Daughter. Or better yet Grandmother and Granddaughter. If the latter that could explain why they like each other soo much. We don’t know when River was born, it is assumed that she is from the future. Could be that baby Amy was carrying in the dream episode was a foreshadowing of events pertaining to the Good Doctor.

#10

Good point OP. Hell, after the way The Big Bang ended, in which I have no idea how the Doctor circumvented that, or how River could be there or even how she remembered and Amy didn’t, perhaps other elements of that pocket universe escaped with him. So River could be Amelia all grown up? My brain hurts now.

#11

I have been thinking about this a lot.
I think i am going to be OK with whatever River Song turns out to be…as long as it means MORE river Song.

I hope she is something NEW, the helps to expand the Who-verse.

the latest incarnation of THE MASTER without the drums would also be fantastic.

Amy POND becoming jack Harkness like as RIVER song would also be fantastic.

so I guess what I want is something Fantastic.

#12

My theory is that River Song is kind of like Vala Mal Doran, if her story were told in reverse chronological order.

Vala is a character from Stargate SG-1 who starts out as a lying, untrustworthy thief and ends up as a slightly unpreditable ally.

We know that meeting the Doctor often changes people for the better. Also, it seems like everytime we see River, she’s at a slightly earlier point in her own personal timeline. Someday, the Doctor is going to meet a version of River who hasn’t met him yet. I have a funny feeling that before she met the Doctor, young River was a very dangerous person.

Look at what we learn about River in The Pandorica Opens and The Big Bang:

1.) She knows how to break out of maximum-security prison. She does it so easily, that it seems like she probably could have done it at any time.
2.) She knows how to breaks into a royal art gallery and steal a thousand-year old painting from the queen.
3.) She knows a black-market weapons-smuggler and she double-crosses him.
4.) She knows how to kill a dalek and make it beg for mercy.

River Song claims to be an archeologist, but she has a rather suspicious set of skills. She has the skill-set of a tomb raider / master thief / minor super-villain.

I think River really does care for the Doctor and trust him and want to help him, now, but in her wild, younger years that may not always have been the case. If the Doctor ever meets a very young River, he should be careful because she could be very dangerous.

#13

You know, this really got me thinking. There have many theories toward making her a Time Lady, possibly even the Doctor himself in a future regeneration. But if, as this implies, that she wasn’t exactly the best person in her own past, then maybe the closeness that she has with the Doctor is because she’s the Master? :eek:

#14

One more grenade here. Just watched the Xmas special. Nothing in it itself point to rivers ID. It’s in the previews for the coming season. In one scene we see Amy covered in markings. They look like stitches. Later in clip we see River covered in those same stitches. Granted this may be explained otherwise. Until then we have issue.

#15

the pice of foreshadowing I’ve noticed (Which no one else has mentioned) is River saying she Killed somone, a truly great man. I think she’s responsible for either his next regeneration or the final end for him.

To bring in poliuce procedurals here, we’re often killed by those closest to us, having married him, perhaps she does kill him, or he merges with the master, turns evil and she’s forced to destroy him, anyways, you folks see where i’m going with this…
Phaze
on the “I need to get up shower and eat something fiantly breakfast shaped, i’ve been awake for almost two hours now and this is just lazy phazey” ID

#16

I really like that theory. It makes some sembelance of sense; and yet, I can’t reallly figure out how. But I think that River Song has her own history. She’s such a fascinating character that I think Moffat would create her own history. Somehow, she is able to time-travel. She knows the Doctor. I know it’s far-fetched, but… another time-lord? Or part-time lord, part human. That would make sense if she had somehow regenerated after dying as Madame du Pompador.
She kind of reminds me as a female version of Jack Harkness. Not in character, but she is a constant companion of the Doctor. And she obviously has a romantic connection to him, but that’s just one more piece of the puzzle. Thoughts?

#17

It’s impossible, since we already know the end of Song’s life back in the Library episode, but it would totally blow my mind if River Song is a future reincarnation of the Doctor. And since we do know how Song dies (well, she lives digitally in the Library), then it’s very unlikely she’s a Time-Lord because, then, why didn’t she just regenerate?

Hmmm. Or maybe not. Since it was implied that the procedure at the Library would kill the Doctor (and that’s why Song knocked him out to take his place - and if the Doctor can actually regenerate after that, well, then, that was a bit of a waste of Song’s life if she was sacrificing for the Doctor for no reason at all - he’d just be out a regeneration and she won’t have to be dead! And their history won’t be changed, since Song only meets the 10th Doctor for this one time anyway), I guess if she was a time-lord, she would die anyway. So…after all of that, I guess it IS possible she’s a time-lord too.

But I am so glad to see copious amounts of Song in the season 6 trailer. WOOT!

#18

hahaha.
I’m glad you’re poking holes (kind of) in the theory, because now that I’m thinking about it, the possibilities about who River Song are are kind of endless. What I REALLY WANT TO KNOW is how they met. River Song and the Doctor, I mean. We’ve now seen other points of interaction between them, but we still haven’t seen the very beginning. And of course not, since that scene would explain practically everything about River Song. It’s the answer.
I’m not sure about River Song being a future incarnation of the Doctor. That’d just be weird. Plus, we’ve seen it before. It was suggested that a future reincarnation of the Doctor was responsible for the events in Amy’s Choice. Which is just kind of scary.
But I think the probability really is high of River Song being a time-lord, part time-lord, or at least, connected to the Time-lords in some way. The line that really convinces me of this is the part in Silence in the Library where the Doctor says “There’s only one time I would ever tell anyone my name. There’s only one time I could.”. So far the strongest connection the Doctor has had to anyone-- where he might reveal personal details is to the Master (another time-lord).
On an ending note, that last scene, where River Song sacrifices herself, has always been my heart-breaking favorite. It’s what made veiwers so curious as to who River Song is in the first place.

#19

Just figured something out. And I know, it sounds insane. But is River Song a time-agent?
completely far-fetched and ridiculous I know, but two peices of evidence.

  1. she uses “a squareness gun” (a sonic blaster) in Silence in the Library and
  2. she knows how to use a vortex manipulator
#20

Not insane at all- that makes complete sense to me.