Resurrection thoughts

Television, Movies Games and Books BSG-2003
#1

I’ve been thinking about resurrection. And something quite shocking came to me. Resurrection is possibly not the correct term for the process. Bear with me, my thought here is a little complex and requires quite some exposition.

The idea is that when a Cylon dies their ‘consciousness’ is downloaded or transmitted to a Resurrection Ship, and then, if there are sufficient available bodies(?) that consciousness is installed into a new corporeal form. It is also suggested that perhaps other Cylons (of the same model, and perhaps even other models I think) can have access to the stored information (ie, the info as it was prior to installing into a new model.)

I think that’s a reasonable summary. Yeah, boring. We all know this.

My thoughts are as follows. Just because a Cylon’s ‘consciousness’, its memories, its personality, its programming is downloaded, does that make the ‘new’ Cylon that pops out of the birthing tank the same individual as the one who died?
In other words, is the self-awareness of the original individual continuous?

I would suggest not.

Imagine if you were identically duplicated, by some ‘magic’ technology. All of your thoughts, your personality, everything about you, right down to the positions of electrons in their orbits around their nuclei. It is, of course, impossible (think: Heisenberg), but this is a thought experiment.

OK, immediately following the ‘copying’ would you start getting two sets of data input? Would you be seeing with two sets of eyes, hearing with four ears, touching with twenty fingers? No. It’s a basic existential principle of individualism and identity. Even in fantasy the copy would be unique in thought. Naturally, the geekier among you are thinking of… the Two Rikers, when exactly this sort of thing occurred, in a Trek narrative of magic and general hocus-pocus. And even they acknowledged the separation of the two characters.

So, to return to our Cylon issue, do you see my point? When a Cylon dies, it dies. Even if there is a Resurrection Ship nearby and they download, the original Cylon is dead, dead, dead. Now, the ‘new’ Cylon may have the identical thoughts of the original, and in fact they may actually believe they are the original, because they would have no other basis for comparison. Hence, D’Anna keeps offing herself (for her own reasons of ‘research’), and when she ‘returns’ she adds to her previous knowledge. But she is not the same person who just got shot.

The original, who thought they were going to be ‘woken up’ after dying is horribly mistaken, and is gone forever, just like everyone else who has died, and everyone else who will ever die. There is no more.

In order for the Cylon/person to be the same individual upon resurrection as they were before being riddled with bullets, then there must be something more than consciousness, etc that is downloaded.

Now, believers here, and in the BSG universe will say, “That’s easy, it’s a soul.” And yes, that is an easy answer. Easy, but wrong. It is perhaps acceptable (or rather, internally consistent) that humans may have a soul (It actually almost hurts to type that line.), but to accept that Cylons (who were created by humans) were made with a soul, or somehow ‘developed a soul’ is just plain bizarre. How the hell do you write programming for a soul?

The only other explanation as I see it is that ‘god’ instilled a soul into both humans and Cylons. And this is getting even crazier.

Thus, I return to my original premise: when Cylons die, they damn well die. Kaput. Just like Kat and Cally and Isaac Newton.

The ‘new’ Cylon in the model line ‘takes over’ where the previous one left off, but is not the same person. And hence, the lovely D’Anna is hopelessly deluded and mistaken, and keeps literally killing herself, never to return as herself. Regardless of any other considerations, I reckon that would be justification enough for boxing.

(I am thinking this may be the most profound idea I have yet had regarding BSG. Not sure what that says about me.)

#2

Every time I read posts like yours, or think about the Cylon resurrection, I think back to “Old Man’s War.” In the book, basically humans are downloading into new bodies, and I thought the same thing at the time: it’s not the same person. So, I completely agree with you on this.

#3

Well that is true. Some They are Ressurected with different personalities. Like the Athena Boomer. And the Boomer that shot Adama. Think about it.

#4

It’s the same as when you download something off the internet. You aren’t pulling the file off of where it is and placing it on your computer. You are essentially making a copy of the file and placing it on your computer. So it’s not technically the same file - it’s a copy. The original file is still on whatever server it’s on - but it’s the same data - identical in every way - and contains the same information.

#5

That’s easy, just install some Heisenberg compensators. Done.

OK, immediately following the ‘copying’ would you start getting two sets of data input? Would you be seeing with two sets of eyes, hearing with four ears, touching with twenty fingers? No. It’s a basic existential principle of individualism and identity. Even in fantasy the copy would be unique in thought. Naturally, the geekier among you are thinking of… the Two Rikers, when exactly this sort of thing occurred, in a Trek narrative of magic and general hocus-pocus. And even they acknowledged the separation of the two characters.

There was a episode of the new Outer Limits called Think Like a Dinosaur that dealt with exactly this issue. The “teleporter” to another planet created a copy there, then basically vaporized the original here, thereby “balancing the equation” so that only one such individual existed. Of course, occasionally something goes wrong…

So, to return to our Cylon issue, do you see my point? When a Cylon dies, it dies. Even if there is a Resurrection Ship nearby and they download, the original Cylon is dead, dead, dead. Now, the ‘new’ Cylon may have the identical thoughts of the original, and in fact they may actually believe they are the original, because they would have no other basis for comparison. Hence, D’Anna keeps offing herself (for her own reasons of ‘research’), and when she ‘returns’ she adds to her previous knowledge. But she is not the same person who just got shot.

The original, who thought they were going to be ‘woken up’ after dying is horribly mistaken, and is gone forever, just like everyone else who has died, and everyone else who will ever die. There is no more.

This could explain why some of the Cylons become… well… bat-shart crazy after a while. Believing and even “knowing” that you’re the same person, while having a gnawing suspicion that you’re deluding yourself (particularly if you understand the inner workings of the technology) must twist your mind a good bit.

In order for the Cylon/person to be the same individual upon resurrection as they were before being riddled with bullets, then there must be something more than consciousness, etc that is downloaded.

Now, believers here, and in the BSG universe will say, “That’s easy, it’s a soul.” And yes, that is an easy answer. Easy, but wrong. It is perhaps acceptable (or rather, internally consistent) that humans may have a soul (It actually almost hurts to type that line.), but to accept that Cylons (who were created by humans) were made with a soul, or somehow ‘developed a soul’ is just plain bizarre. How the hell do you write programming for a soul?

Creation matrix?

The only other explanation as I see it is that ‘god’ instilled a soul into both humans and Cylons. And this is getting even crazier.

Thus, I return to my original premise: when Cylons die, they damn well die. Kaput. Just like Kat and Cally and Isaac Newton.

The ‘new’ Cylon in the model line ‘takes over’ where the previous one left off, but is not the same person. And hence, the lovely D’Anna is hopelessly deluded and mistaken, and keeps literally killing herself, never to return as herself. Regardless of any other considerations, I reckon that would be justification enough for boxing.

To be honest, I always thought the exact same thing of the Trekverse transporters. Every day, billions of people across the galaxy are brutally ripped apart atom by atom, and no one ever even notices a mild disturbance in the force. Boggles the mind…

(I am thinking this may be the most profound idea I have yet had regarding BSG. Not sure what that says about me.)

Thinking deep thoughts about death and self-delusion? How could that be bad? :rolleyes:

#6

How 'bout this: it’s not, but it seems that way to the ‘resurrected’ individual, so they never realize it.

#7

I loved your post, but I think you made one leap of logic that I did not follow.

"In order for the Cylon/person to be the same individual upon resurrection as they were before being riddled with bullets, then there must be something more than consciousness, etc that is downloaded. "

I am not sure I agree with this. Consciousness could be so special that it transcends the vessel which contains it. Alternatively, a cylon consciousness could be housed centrally and constantly synchronized with a central server. In the first case this is similar to our religious concept of a soul, except it does not have to have religious connotations. There’s no reason to believe that anything supernatural is involved, just that we have created (second or third order creation perhaps) this consciousness. In the second case the “slave” consciousness residing in the cylon is just an instantiation for performance or data-gathering purposes.

#8

that’s how this forum works. Welcome!

#9

Well, what is lost then?

#10

You come from nothing, you’re going back to nothing.
What have you lost? Nothing! :slight_smile:

#11

Well what you are saying is completely appropriate with the cylons because they synchronize into the collective before being downloaded into a new body following death. The resurrected individual therefore has more experience than the one who dies. There is more added to them as an individual than just the experiences they had when in the previous body.

If this weren’t the case I’m not sure I would agree with you. I think it’s a corpo-centric view of individuality. the cylon psyche is a program. If it didn’t sync with the rest of its model line upon resurrection, it’s experiences would be continuous. Once the vessel could not sustain the machinery, biological or otherwise, which contains its program, the program is downloaded into another body. My arguement here depends on the process being seamless (no sync), but the individual’s experiences would form a chain without overlap. They wouldn’t exist in two bodies at once. The death of one body would shift the vantage of the next. I consider this like moving a SIM card from one phone to the next. Teleportation instead involves the replication and destruction of a physical object. With a cylon the whole of the individual’s experience would just be data. provided the transmission of this data is faithful, that individual is kept intact.

The cylon method of resurrection interdicts this as part of the process involves syncronizing with the collective. for this reason the individual is in fact lost in the whole process.

#12

I agree that this view of resurrection (or not*resurrection) is based upon a necessarily corporeal view of the individual, and because of that I think that perhaps RS is limiting the definition too much? The thoughts here are sound, but I am considering Natalie’s comments when Boomer voted against her model about the nature of Cylon models and their personality or template, if you will, being the basis for their shared identity. I know this has been mentioned many times elsewhere, but I think we are seeing the emergence of the definition of self that we commonly use, that is, a physically, mentally, etc separate being that recognizes a difference between self and other. However, prior to the Cylon differentiation, can we speak of resurrection in the terms that RS posits? If the Cylon do not identify the individual, would the continuity of the model necessarily take precedence over the continuity of the consciousness of an individual within that model?

#13

Then nothing is lost, so it is resurrection…

Interestingly Roman’s original post is an argument for the existence of a soul.

#14

The units of each model are like so many fingers of the same hand. It’s a collective and there isn’t really an individual to speak of. OT: I said it in another thread but I believe the cylon sense of individuality is a sort of corruption of their programming being instigated by the duration and nature of their contact with humans. If the cylon models had remained isolated from the humans, this schism we’ve witnessed likely would have never happened.

Side note: it’s funny that the sixes are the only model in which units really differentiated themselves (hair color). The rest have been very consistant in appearance. What that says for their temperment/mental state I don’t know. It could be arbitrary so as not to make the basestar scenes monotonous.

The existence of a soul and the parameters which define it is a philosophical discourse unto itself.

Would you call a series of unpredictable logic processes a soul? The line between human and cylon becomes blurry when you consider that the brain is an organic CPU. It has circuits and mechanisms. It can be conditioned (programmed) and modified (drugs). So is that enough to say a cylon is capable of having a soul? Not to support or refute the existence of any soul, but most arguments favoring one run dangerously close to being a cop out for the mystery of cognition or the inexplicability of existence.

#15

Reasonable analogy, Miss M.

And yes, I acknowledge the data is the same. A digital (if you like) exact copy. But the new person is not the same.

#16

Yes, exactly. And when they do get resurrected, the new person, with all the experiences of the old one(s) cannot differentiate whether they are a continuation or not. So their view is entirely subjective.

To be honest, I always thought the exact same thing of the Trekverse transporters. Every day, billions of people across the galaxy are brutally ripped apart atom by atom, and no one ever even notices a mild disturbance in the force. Boggles the mind…

It’s not ‘the force’ that worried me. It’s the absolute ‘death’ of the original individual. And because the reconstructed one has all the personality, etc of the deconstructed one, they do not realise that the original one is really dead.

#17

Yes. exactly. But the new person IS NOT the old person. To an outside observer they might be. And to themselves they might be. But to the original, they are not.

#18

Perhaps. Hence my ‘soul’ interpretation (which I later reject in a straw man argument!).

Alternatively, a cylon consciousness could be housed centrally and constantly synchronized with a central server. In the first case this is similar to our religious concept of a soul, except it does not have to have religious connotations. There’s no reason to believe that anything supernatural is involved, just that we have created (second or third order creation perhaps) this consciousness. In the second case the “slave” consciousness residing in the cylon is just an instantiation for performance or data-gathering purposes.

And, as you say, your interpretation is just another word for ‘soul’.

#19

What is lost? The life of the original individual. That’s pretty significant I think.

Hell, even the most devout believers here on Earth, who are firmly convinced of an afterlife, still do not carelessly discard their lives. (Oops. Well, maybe a few lots-of-standard-deviations-away-from-the-norm might.)

Life is precious. And it seems to me Six (and Boomer to an extent) have been pretty reckless in happily resurrecting in the belief that they come back as the same person.

#20

I sort-of get your point. But I think you may be being too ‘mechanistic’ in interpreting Cylon consciousness/humanness/whatever. I think the examples shown thus far indicate that Cylons are not just biologically almost identical to humans, but also in the way they think, develop individual personalities, etc.

At least you do agree with me the the original person is gone, gone, gone… :slight_smile: