Politics/New Truck/Fuel Price Discussion

[Casilda]

As I said, what the U.S. needs is a good, old fashioned proletariat revolution.

Except perhaps of the bloodless, political kind.

Can I still join the revolution, even though I’m middle class?

(and yes, the more bloodless and political, the better ;))

[Armando]

Where’s the fun in that? (I kid, don’t go all “glorifying death” and such on me please)

Believe me, I won’t. There are very few things worth dying for and no death is glorious.

Can I still join the revolution, even though I’m middle class?

You know it’s gonna be all right, Casilda.
But if you go carryin’ pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

Stroogie, I love, love LOVE your signature graphic/motivational poster. That is probably the coolest thing I’ve seen all day.

[Default_Prophet]

I meant lecturing about how death is inglorious and that I was glorifying death. Not the other way around. Maybe I should have phrased it different.

[Leah]

So I should live like a hermit? If I didn’t own what you call an “aircraft carrier,” I wouldn’t be able to get around anywhere for seven months of the year. Yeah those new little cars are good on gas, but on these dirt mountain roads, especially in the winter, they aren’t going to cut it. Plus the vast majority of people who own these larger sized trucks need them for their own businesses, like carpenters and construction workers. Are they supposed to not work? Once again, those little cars aren’t going to cut it. What I would like to see is these companies start putting some effort into developing some hybrid trucks.

Well they are, but there are some issues with what they are designing.

You need the truck use it. Hopefully they will make them with better engines so you get the best of both worlds.

In SD, or rural NY, where I lived for the last two years, having these kinds of cars makes perfect sense. Lots of farming/mining/logging/construction business, dirt roads and tons of snow make it almost a necessity to have a truck. In major cities, though, I simply don’t get it.

By the way, you’re all making me jealous with your talk of new cars and other accoutrements. I’ll be happy when we can afford to move out of my wife’s parents’ house. And now that August is at our doorstep it’s becoming increasingly apparent that that day may not come for a while, and I’ll be faced with commuting up to Baltimore from northern Virginia to teach a class at 8:30 a.m. Gonna be a swell year!

I can not buy a car so any new fuel will have to work in my car until they pay teachers better.

I see what you mean. The gas/oil situation may seem dire now, but it’s going to become a lot worse in the near future.

Here’s my take:

1. The entire mess could have been largely avoided if car manufacturers had gotten off their lazy sorrybarbs sooner and developed automobiles with alternative energy sources for fuel.

2. Why didn’t they? Because gas was so damn cheap in the 1990s. So there was no demand for alternative fuels among the masses.

3. Another reason why they didn’t? Big Oil bought important patents and/or prototypes and had them destroyed so they could continue to sell oil.

4. Every regular joe in India and China isn’t satisfied with a bicycle anymore. They want cars too. And there’s a lot of regular joes in India and China. Can we blame them? No, we started the whole thing, they’re merely jumping on the band wagon.

5. Why do we need automobiles in the first place? To get from A to B. If A was closer to B, we’d use less gas, pay less money. See what I’m getting at? If the fuel situation isn’t resolved soon, we’re going to see massive social and societal changes. People will not be able to afford living in suburbs any longer, people will need to move closer to where they work or go to school. Hopefully, we’ll see much more public transportation. People won’t be able to afford to go on vacation at the other end of the world anymore. Businessmen will take the train instead of flying.

I sympathize with people who really need trucks for their job, if gas prices rise, they’ll have to charge more for their services. Which will lead to people thinking twice about hiring them or doing more stuff on their own. Everybody who does not need a truck or an SUV and drives a big car just for the fun of it… they’re making everything worse by using up more gas than they’d have to, thereby increasing demand even further.

As I said, either this mess is going to be resolved soon, or we’ll all have to deal with massive changes to the way we live.

I went Through a gas shortage in the late 1970s. We lined up and only could buy a few gallons. You would have thought we would have learned from that.

I’d rather have a matter/antimatter shuttle.

Anyway, seriously, I think the electric car/solar car thing will be ready to hit the mass markets in a couple of years and that should solve the biggest problems.

The biggest problem is that no one cares until it hits their little place on earth. If we started using the tech we had in the 1980s we would be better off today.

Wow, Prettyhair did I do OK on the large multiquotes? Now onto page 10.

[Leah]

I agree with you 100% Lucky. I get so mad when I see the brightly polished Hummers driving around L.A.

of course, when I see these, and I see them more often than one might imagine, I want to throw up

I see them also and we do not have much need for them in Florida.

Not quite sure what you’re getting at here, my friend, but we are experiencing a similar price spike. A gallon of gas costs almost 9USD over here. In fact, prices are going down a bit already because the demand is decreasing.

Oil prices have been going up for years and it’s common knowledge that there’s only a limited supply of oil around the world. The futures market is merely a reflection of what’s to come. Even if you shut down the futures market, that wouldn’t create a single drop of oil. We’re running out of that stuff and we all need to wake up and realize that.

The people that sell the oil know it also. That is why the prices are going up.

That’s really the issue with all the alternatives to oil. Consider our latest obssession: ethanol. The cost is artificially low due to subsidies, both at the agricultural and the refinery levels. Subsidized prices necessarily just move the costs elsewhere, such as the already overburdened federal defiicit. Beyond even the monetary costs, though, is the untenable process of refining corn into fuel, which uses more energy to make ethanol than the energy that you can get from that ethanol. Add to that the energy needed to harvest and transport the corn to the refinery, as well as necessity of trucking the ethanol to its destination rather than using pipelines (due to ethanol’s affinity for water). Things are somewhat better with sugarcane, of course, but the US doesn’t have a lot of that, so our refineries aren’t designed for it. All of this means we actually use more oil to produce that which was supposed to save us from using so much oil in the first place. It would be laughable if it hadn’t already cause broad economic and environmental damage. The higher demand on corn raises its price, so farmers grow more of it over less lucrative crops, thereby increasing the demand and price of those crops, leading to ripples in the cost and availability of the entire food supply, not to mention the environmental effects of such ramped-up farming (fertilizers, cutting down trees to obtain arable land, the fuel needs of equipment, etc.).

Oh, and those great hybrid vehicles use very specialized lithium batteries, which of course use a pretty massive amount of energy in their manufacture, not to mention the environmentally damaging processes needed for mining, transporting, and refining the component chemicals.

And, most unfortunately, the economics of scale don’t really apply in these cases. In fact, higher production actually is making the problems worse. Maybe oil’s not so bad after all – we just need to use a lot less of it.

There are other ways such as using other bio products to make fuel.

Oil Shale seems to need a more difficult and costly refining process than crude oil and Alaska/Offshore drilling would also be very expensive. It’s too late anyway, such projects should have been started years ago.

The Govener of Florida suggested taking the ban off of drilling closer to the coast to help lower fuel costs. He forgot to tell everyone that it will take more than 10 years to even start drilling and that the companies do not even use all the area they have.

But prices are already high?

See, prices actually need to go way higher so that the industry suffers a lot of pressure to quickly develop alternatives. If we invest money to make oil cheaper again, nobody’s going to invest in new technologies, just like during the 90s.

90s try 80s

[Leah]

Jeez - I didn’t mean to start Gas War 2008! You guys are sucking the fun out of my new truck.

Congratulations on your new truck. Use it safetly.

Cool craaaaaap you've acquired/done lately

Um, I got a library card.
[ducks out]

Good it is nice to know you read more than the Gutter thread. :rolleyes:

I went to see Wal E and Batman tonight and caught up with this thread.

[Boxytheboxed]

Even if we started drilling NOW in these places, we wouldn’t see returns on that investment for ten years, at least, by which point the world supply of oil will have run even lower and prices will have risen even higher, thus negating the whole point of offshore/Alaskan drilling in the first place. Unless you like your planet a few degrees warmer.

The “futures market” in oil probably has little to do with the price of oil today. It seems prefectly obvious to me that it’s a question of a limited and rapidly dwindling (depending on who you ask the oil supply has either spiked and is already in decline or will be spiking and declining by 2050) supply of oil versus rapidly growing demand from highly populated developing nations like China and India.

Sorry my friend, but wrong. the futures market, according to the Economist controlls roughly 70% of oil prices. The price form futres would siginificantly reduce b/c they would be confident we have enough shale/other sources to last us till were off oil.

[Boxytheboxed]

Given Boxy’s revelation as… a libertarian :eek: … I’ll just note that I remember most of the debaters when I was in HS (in the late '90s) thought that being libertarian was cool. But as they grew up, they realized that it wasn’t a realistic way of viewing the world. The market is biased, and do you see it resolving issues of social justice any time soon? (I use debaters as my example because they were the only large group that had any political opinion at all)

No worries, I’m pretty sure they listen to my phone calls. Especially with sis in Europe and in-laws in S. America… (or I might give them too much credit to pick up on my saying “Bush is an idiot, can you believe he said/did X?” and actually caring)

Agreed. I’m an urbanite, and seeing all of those SUVs driving around that had obviously never been used for their designed purposes just made me angry. I was spitting mad when I saw Hummer dealers. Because realistically, what civilian needs a Hummer?! Really!?

I’m proud to use public transportation. And I agree about people needing to have got into this earlier. I remember being made fun of when I was younger for worrying about things like this… oh, how times have changed. It’s kind of like thinking that invading Iraq was a bad idea, back in 2002 and 2003. Speaking of oil…

#4 is really important too. We can’t just say, hey rest of the world! You aren’t allowed to attain our standards of living, because we’ve decided that the Earth can’t handle it, so you’re stuck walking or with buses while we decide the greenest way to continue our consumerist lifestyles. Not to mention that these attitudes have a lot to do with racist legacies as well as colonialist legacies… I’m not sure what the right answer is, but I think a step in the right direction would be to actually take responsibility for our own output while negotiating in such a way as to raise living standards worldwide. That’s probably unrealistic, but I still think it would be a good thing.

Here I have to disagree. The futures market is part of it, but it’s not the only cause. Consider that oil is a finite resource, where those resources are located, and the increasing demand. Add in the general crappiness of the economic situation of most places, inflation, etc, and you have a recipe for unhappiness.

If all one were to care about would be the price of oil… but there are those of us who think that drilling and destroying more natural habitats is a bad thing. I’m also curious as to what figures you’re working with, because most of what I’ve seen - admittedly ideologically skewed towards environmentalists, peak oil, etc, though also from not as skewed places like a certain British newsmagazine - has calculated the the time and costs (purely economic here, not taking into account the destruction of the surrounding environment) of that development, and it wouldn’t be worthwhile.

The policies of the last eight years have pretty much pushed us in that direction… but I think your question is unfair, given that no one would actually say that they want people to fail. Pure rhetoric, not policy.

I’d respond, but its Summer
I usually don’t keep track of where everything is from because I read so much, but its all saved, and backed up between a large network of debate team computers. The truth is noone can give a proven number for how much oil we have, and how much longer it will last.
Yes, Libertarian…god I hate income tax. I really don’t like big government, and government spending. Granted I don’t support it all realistically, some just ideologically.

[BadgerSpoon]

I went Through a gas shortage in the late 1970s. We lined up and only could buy a few gallons. You would have thought we would have learned from that.

Some of my earliest memories are sitting in a long line of cars for what seemed to be hours, waving at other kids who were stuck in the same predicament. Unfortunately, we didn’t learn anything from that; in fact, the rise of minivans and SUVs came not long afterwards.

The biggest problem is that no one cares until it hits their little place on earth. If we started using the tech we had in the 1980s we would be better off today.

It’s a very “feast or famine” mentality: innovation only occurs when it’s needed, and it’s only needed when it hurts. The fact that the “shortages” of the '70s were artificial no doubt plays into that as well, as does the rise of radical Islam throughout the Middle East (and the consequent, though far less noticed, rise of radical Christianity throughout the West, particularly in the US).

Wow, Prettyhair did I do OK on the large multiquotes?

Well done! Now your posts can annoy Pike as much as mine.

There are other ways such as using other bio products to make fuel.

None of which are sustainable, especially on a large scale. And even if they were, they can only meet the smallest fraction of the demand in this country, much less the rest of the world. And again, they divert agriculture towards fuel instead of food. People may want energy, but they need food.

The Govener of Florida suggested taking the ban off of drilling closer to the coast to help lower fuel costs. He forgot to tell everyone that it will take more than 10 years to even start drilling and that the companies do not even use all the area they have.

Isn’t that the point of politics? Offering the public a solution for a problem that they don’t really understand, whether or not the solution or even the problem actually exists?

Sorry my friend, but wrong. the futures market, according to the Economist controlls roughly 70% of oil prices. The price form futres would siginificantly reduce b/c they would be confident we have enough shale/other sources to last us till were off oil.

Realistically, that’s not going to happen until it basically runs out. There are few sources of chemical energy that are as (relatively) easily accessible as petroleum, and fewer still that give quite the “bang for the buck” in energy density. In short, oil is just too useful not to utilize as long as there’s any of it left. Think of it like bread: if you’ve got a pantry fully stocked with ingredients, are you more likely to bake a loaf from scratch or just grab a slice from the loaf that already sitting on the shelf? Sure, fresh baked bread is so much better than the preservative-laden stuff from the store, but it’s also more time-consuming and labor-intensive. Why bother as long as there’s ready-made bread within easy reach?

[Casilda]

LOL Boxy, you’re a debater. I should have known.

Lincoln Douglas or Policy?

[Leah]

Well done! Now your posts can annoy Pike as much as mine.

None of which are sustainable, especially on a large scale. And even if they were, they can only meet the smallest fraction of the demand in this country, much less the rest of the world. And again, they divert agriculture towards fuel instead of food. People may want energy, but they need food.

Realistically, that’s not going to happen until it basically runs out. There are few sources of chemical energy that are as (relatively) easily accessible as petroleum, and fewer still that give quite the “bang for the buck” in energy density. In short, oil is just too useful not to utilize as long as there’s any of it left. Think of it like bread: if you’ve got a pantry fully stocked with ingredients, are you more likely to bake a loaf from scratch or just grab a slice from the loaf that already sitting on the shelf? Sure, fresh baked bread is so much better than the preservative-laden stuff from the store, but it’s also more time-consuming and labor-intensive. Why bother as long as there’s ready-made bread within easy reach?

Pike does not like multi quote posts. Cool :rolleyes:

They have developed fuel from algae. The nice thing about that in Florida is we can use swamp land to grow it. I will have to do more research to tell you more. Most fuel takes more energy to make it than energy we get from it.

[Starbuccaneer]

Boxy, you’re too damn young to have a political affiliation. Seriously. At 14-15 you should just be out there having fun. Politics is a pursuit best left off till college.

Armando, you wound my soul. I first tuned in at 14-15 and it has shaped my entire life. In a good way. Following politics = being an informed participant in society, even if you’re too young to vote.

I predict wars over natural resources some time in the future.

There are already wars over resources like water (see Africa). Or look back to classic colonialism- wars about natural resources. And if food counts in this column, I’d start worrying about the riots in Asia and Africa.

Sorry my friend, but wrong. the futures market, according to the Economist controlls roughly 70% of oil prices. The price form futres would siginificantly reduce b/c they would be confident we have enough shale/other sources to last us till were off oil.

Boxy, I’m going to have to double check this, but I think that one of the Economist’s podcasts in the past 2 weeks said that the candidates were being ridiculous for making an issue of speculation because its effect was not so important. Yes, I just found the print version of the editorial here.

On energy in general: there’s no solution except innovation and we ALL have to suck it up and suffer some (a few of us will suffer lots) while we change and adapt and invent. I have faith in the long term but it is going to be very unfun in the meantime.

LOL Boxy, you’re a debater. I should have known.

Lincoln Douglas or Policy?

I was L-D and I loved it. And it helped me in college. And in real life. Wow. Could I be a bigger dork?

[BadgerSpoon]

Cool craaaaaap you've acquired/done lately

What? I’m a bookworm! Have you seen my book shelves?

You mean the ones that are somehow curiously devoid of anything in German?

Cool craaaaaap you've acquired/done lately

please, GR, don’t sully the library!

Trust me, he wouldn’t be the first. :eek:

They have developed fuel from algae. The nice thing about that in Florida is we can use swamp land to grow it. I will have to do more research to tell you more.

I’d heard about this several years ago but never saw any updates thereafter. Apparently the excess algae was a good source of protein as well.

hmmm, that sounds vaguely familiar…

Most fuel takes more energy to make it than energy we get from it.

Of course. Otherwise we’d all be members of the United Federation of Planets.

Cool craaaaaap you've acquired/done lately

too long; didn’t read

Noted for future reference.

On energy in general: there’s no solution except innovation and we ALL have to suck it up and suffer some (a few of us will suffer lots) while we change and adapt and invent. I have faith in the long term but it is going to be very unfun in the meantime.

Amen. And it’s only going to unfunner in the meantime. Doubleplusungood. :rolleyes:

[Splatterson]

…those “vehicles” half a dozen posts above you, those are aircraft carriers!

Say GR - would it make you feel better if I told you that I drive a scooter when it’s not winter? It gets 55-60mpg! We actually have 2 - one for me, 1 for hubby. We don’t drive things with 4 wheels much in good weather…

[GalaxyRanger]

Say GR - would it make you feel better if I told you that I drive a scooter when it’s not winter? It gets 55-60mpg! We actually have 2 - one for me, 1 for hubby. We don’t drive things with 4 wheels much in good weather…

Oh, is it a Vespa? I saw those a lot in Italy and they’re really cute and there’s a certain Mediterranean lifestyle that’s always associated with scooters and Vespas in particular.

[Armando]

Armando, you wound my soul. I first tuned in at 14-15 and it has shaped my entire life. In a good way. Following politics = being an informed participant in society, even if you’re too young to vote.

Well that’s me: Armando, Wounder of Souls. BWAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously, I do think it’s absolutely essential for people to get tuned in and be informed about their government. That is precisely the biggest problem with our system here in the U.S. At the same time, I am really grateful that my father wouldn’t let us put up any political bumper stickers or the like because, well, little kids (I was about six when this happened) should be able to enjoy life without thinking about politics. Maybe it’s that I’m now a father myself, but part of me wants to protect young people from the cynicism that being aware of politics has brought me.

[Splatterson]

Oh, is it a Vespa? I saw those a lot in Italy and they’re really cute and there’s a certain Mediterranean lifestyle that’s always associated with scooters and Vespas in particular.

Honda Metropolitan, actually!

[Leah]

Honda Metropolitan, actually!

I went to city hall to help the political process work. One of the reserved spots had a scooter. I am not sure but I think one of our commissioners drove it.

[Splatterson]

My scooter is technically a motorcyle - 125cc’s. I need that to haul my fat (sorry barb) up and down the hills here in town. Had to get a motorcycle license to drive it. Did you know that the drivers license folks get a huge kick out of giving the motorcycle driving test to someone riding a scooter?

[Leah]

It all started with I got a new truck is is cool or what. I thought it just was a long multirant.