LOST Finale Discussion (Spoilers)

I guess I didn’t see that. Maybe it was his proximity to Jack since Jack had been chosen and his time on the island was over.

I would loved to have seen Hurley as the protector and how he did it differently than Jacob.

Finally, let me just say thank you to Lindeloff and Cuse and Abrams for having the stones to make such a great show. I really wish there was something else on TV now that could suck me in like LOST. It may be a while before a show comes along as powerful as LOST. I guess I’ll be re-watching like I did with the West Wing after it finished.

I loved the finale. What I loved about it was that all the characters I’ve grown to love all ended up together (their souls anyway). The moments where the various people remembered their lives were so emotionally satisfying to me - I just loved it.

The island stuff was eh - I mean if you take out all the sideways stuff the rest was just okay. But the Sideways (limbo) stuff made everything else worth it to me. Cause all I really cared about was the characters and their journey’s and relationships with each other.

I understand that a lot of people feel that way and therefore this was a pretty satisfying, happy ending from that perspective. Maybe it’s because I didn’t start watching till 2008 or maybe it’s just because I’m a guy, but I never really fell for these characters…and most certainly would not have followed the show if it was only about them. I liked them of course, but never loved them.

I’m totally into the mythology and feel a little let down in that regard but not too much. The resolution of the sideways story surprised me in an interesting way (and I like being surprised) so that was a definite plus. People die at different times but all get to heaven at the same time. Interesting.
But remove it from the surprise-context and I think it was quite cheesy.

But I’m not a hater!

I am beginning to think that there are two camps of Lost fans; those who are mostly intregued by the island and those who are intregued by the characters. I feel really sorry for the former because this finale wasn’t for them. In fact, the entire show by now must feel like a striptease that never fulfills. They don’t understand that the show was never really about the island. There is no possible way to truly understand the island or know exactly how it works because it doesn’t play by any set of rules. It is what it is and anyone who happens to get caught on it must bend to it’s will. Locke and Ekko understood this and ultimately so did Jack before he died.

If you have never read Stephen King’s From a Buick 8, you might need to give it a read as it deals with this exact same issue; making sense of the impossible and realizing that you can’t. The Island tests what kind of human being you are by forcing you to recognize your inner-most fears and ambitions. In a way you can say it’s the Lost equivalent to the Kobayoshi Maru test except that even if you cheat, it really does show who you really are.

I love the finale because it wasn’t interested in any more answers. It focused on showing us where these characters will go and ultimately how they eventually will accept death with comraderie and love for one another. This is a family that has been forged by Jacob’s cruel test (you will notice that not all of the survivors of 815 join in, but I was disappointed Mr. Ekko wasn’t there). I love that Ben finally found the redemption that I felt he started yearning for since last season and that John was capable of finding forgiveness and acceptance, the two things he lacked that I really think were keeping him that chair to begin with. I love that Jack was able to smile as the plane flew above and when Vincent stayed by his side at the end.

The island will do as it wills and if you try to fight it, you will find yourself eithe dead if your lucky, smokey if you aren’t.

Well, I don’t feel like it was a striptease exactly. Nor do I think it was never about the island. It was always at least as much about the island as it was about the characters. Many people would agree the island itself was even a major character in the narrative.
As far as rules go…the island played by a great many rules! The writers went to lengths to demonstrate the rules. A lot of time and surely a massive amount of money was spent on the island’s character. It might have been a gimmick, but it wasn’t just a sideshow.

I would normally agree that the Island is a character, but as we now know, Jacob was the one really pulling the strings of all the characters. The island has special properties and holds a special gateway, but that is not the same as being a character. As for the rules, riddle me this, why is it that the island is capable of healing certain characters (Locke, Rose…) and allow others to die (remember Ben’s tumor)? Why if you cannot come back to the island once you leave as was told by Ben and yet most of the major characters return after leaving? I know you can chalk that one up to saying that it was a lie, but in a way, if you allow for one rule to be a lie, what does that do to the other “rules”? And we won’t even talk about how a hydrogen bomb appearantly does nothing more than send a few people back to the future since the Sideways Universe was merely just a Limbo-ish reality.

I found this on another board, it may be of interest- here’s (part 1 of) what one of the writers (supposedly) has to say about the finale:

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I’ve had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John’s questions about Dharma and the “pointless breadcrumbs” that really, weren’t so pointless …

First …
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people’s heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a “Protector”. Jacob wasn’t the first, Hurley won’t be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him – even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob’s plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn’t do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn’t take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma – which I’m not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by “corrupting” Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben’s “off-island” activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the “Others” killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that’s what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn’t do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB’s corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That’s a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still … Dharma’s purpose is not “pointless” or even vague. Hell, it’s pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his “candidates” (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of “candidates” through the decades and letting them “choose” which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn’t. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector – I know that’s how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won’t answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he’d always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we’ll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on …

and part 2…

Now…

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least – because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer’s room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we’re all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it’s not exactly the best word). But these people we’re linked to are with us duing “the most important moments of our lives” as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It’s loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this “sideways” world where they exist in purgatory until they are “awakened” and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show’s concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own “Sideways” purgatory with their “soulmates” throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That’s a beautiful notion. Even if you aren’t religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It’s a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events – not JUST because of Jacob. But because that’s what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith – and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that’s THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer’s took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways “purgatory” with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn’t allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died – some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley’s case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are “awakened” and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren’t in the chuch – basically everyone who wasn’t in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here’s where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It’s possible that those links aren’t people from the island but from their other life (Anna’s parnter, the guy she shot — Roussou’s husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn’t go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can’t move on yet because he hasn’t connected with the people he needs to. It’s going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley’s number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It’s really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more “behind the scenes” note: the reason Ben’s not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn’t believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It’s pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church – but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church … and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder – the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ’s ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I’ve been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I’ve loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don’t touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story – even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.

Thoughts?

Verrry interesting. Wonder if it’s legit. Hope it is.

But, from a more “behind the scenes” note: the reason Ben’s not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn’t believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It’s pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church – but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church … and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder – the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ’s ending. And they kept it.

OK. That makes total sense to me and the reason it feels so disjointed from the rest of the episode.

Whether this is legit or not, it explains it very well for me. Thanks Katebo, I can now sleep at night.

But, how much of the island stuff was real? It couldn’t have been real right up to the end where Jack dies. Hurley was still on the island at that point, as the caretaker, so if Jack was dying in real time wouldn’t that mean Hurley was still living? Hurley was waiting for Jack at the church, indicating he died as well. I’m thinking they died when the bomb went off.

:frowning:

The stuff in limbo/purgatory happened AFTER the island stuff - I’m thinking WAY after since Hurley was there - he likely died much later than Jack.

The limbo stuff didn’t happen until they had all died and were ready to move on together.

The Lonely Toaster appreciates, but does not endorse, this video.

Agreed. Christian stated ttime didn’t exist in the sideways. Hugo and Ben even complimented each other on their roles as protectors in the past tense. For all we know, Hugo died after living on the Island for 1000 years.

Good points.

I’d be more inclined to believe that stuff really came from a writer if he/she didn’t misspell so many of the character names.:eek:

I was thinking they were trying to say that human beings die at different times, but we all get to heaven at the same time…as if heaven is outside of time itself. I know Christian said there is no “now” there (whatever that means!).

You’re listing some of the inconsistencies of the show which were probably due to the pitfalls of taking a mystery-for-the-sake-of-mystery tack with the writing. I don’t think these imperfections negate the island being a character in the least. I also think of the Jacob character as being part and parcel with the Island.

Well, I didn’t see that coming. I’ve always loved how LOST has defied my expectations and “The End” was no exception. After trying to analyze the mythology of the show for six years I think it’s brilliant that they left us with the biggest mystery of all: The undiscovered country.
From what I’ve seen, the reaction has been mostly positive, peppered with a few rants about being “religious”. To those I say this: LOST has always been full of religious symbolism, but has never tried to sell a certain faith. They have also drawn from the well of science and philosophy, all great mysteries and all employed in the search for truth. They even went out of their way to make a *coexist stained glass window (Although I think the use of the name “Christian Shephard” may result in action taken by the A.C.L.U.).
Jack dies in the bamboo forest with Vincent by his side [eye closes]…wow, I can’t think of a better ending.


*A coexist bumper sticker displayed on every other car in Berkeley CA

Ya, who knows how long Hurley was the protector since the holder is immortal. Christian said to Jack that there is no “Now” here meaning that time is relative in that place and because they all made that “waiting room” together to meet up and go with each other since they meant so much to one another.

Would be nice to know though how they lived after the left the island and whether Hurley came back to visit them when and after he brought Desmond home.

I agree it would be interesting to know what happened to the folks that excaped the island - as well as what happened to Hurley and Ben afterwards. I think - ultimately - it was Jack’s story - it starts with him and ends with him and everything beyond that was another story entirely.

And I think it’s fun that we get to imagine whatever we want - I like to imagine that Sawyer and Kate did something good with their lives because of the effect that being on the island had on them.

How you folks made it through so many seasons of this Ill never understand, but Im glad this thread exists so I can feel at ease with never making it past season 2.