Kara's End

Television, Movies Games and Books BSG-2003
#21

I have a questiion and a comment…
Question-
MrP- did you like the ending of the show with the exception of the issues you stated? or were those issues enough that you didn’t like it at all?

Comment- When I first started posting to this forum, I felt similarly about some peoples reactions being personel attacks instead of discussions. But after hanging in for a while I have become familar certain peoples “style” and have realized they were challeging me to defend my Idea’s more completely.
That said, now when I get that “attacked” feeling, and mention to the people, it is almost always my interpretation of what they said rather then what they actually meant to say , and it has led to many great discussions.

so MrP hang in there and if I say something that you find aggressive toward you, feel fee to mention it, and I will clarify. I love a good debate:D

sometimes…“what we have here…is a failure to comunicate”…

#22

I am going to throw my hat in here as I have been surprised by people not enjoying the ending, especially Kara’s end.

I believe what helped me truly enjoy it was I immediately reflected on Arthur C Clarke’s third law of prediction:
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”
I combine that thot with the writer’s curse: to explain something is to pull back the curtain and reveal the wizard. Whether it was us being brought onto the basestar or simply becoming more familiar with the Cylons something is lost when we are presented with what we only were able to imagine before.

However, there is something more here which I feel RDM hints at during the final sequence of the Heads walking in Times Square: It isn’t that RDM didn’t want to reveal the truth and mechanisms, it was that he couldn’t because he is human. The human mind cannot conceive currently of the technology so advanced that it can manage the progression of species over millenia. They are not God(s), but we can not distinguish them from God.

In the end if we were given a “Being of Light”, Dirk Bennedict on a throne or Jesus Christ himself appearing before Adama we would have cried foul. We don’t want the answer because knowing the answer means we can understand the answer and in this case we cannot. Starbuck had a purpose, the purpose was fulfilled and therefore she ceased to be. To me it is that simple, that elegant and that perfect. To me it is the perfect end to Kara and I for one am glad for it.

#23

I understand where the above posters are coming from concerning the strong response to their negative assessment of the finale, because I one of those doing the responding. As others have stated the goal here isn’t to make people uncomfortable expressing their opinion. But the hope is that even when people see something in BSG they don’t like, that they will still manage to find a way to discuss it in a positive way. This forum has been a special place for discussing scifi since its inception and lived up to personality of our hosts. While too many other forums seem to devolve into a continual rants. Sean, Chuck and Audra have expressed eloquently that their mission to create a generally positive place to discuss the scifi that we love so much. This is expressed particularly eloquently in their recent discussions of ST:TMP and ST:TFF. Yes, these may not be the best movies in the series and sure they are easy to complain about, but they are part of the canon and there are some good parts (if you look hard enough) worthy of discussion.

Therefore, when some were quick to strongly criticize the BSG finale within hours of its airing, I think some us around here were quick to take notice. Speaking for myself, nothing raises my hackles more than a quick dismissal of a plot point as the result of lazy and poor writing. Sure there were elements of the finale may have been surprising or unexpected, and clearly there are parts of this fictional story that oppose strongly with my (real) world view. But the hope of many of us is to have a conversation of what the ramifications of such unexpected events are for the characters’ motivations and how such events affect our interpretation of prior plot points.

I’m sorry if any one was made to feel uncomfortable and conclude they can’t express their opinions on this forum. I would feel particularly bad if new posters were dissuaded from contributing here. However, given what I’ve seen elsewhere, even the most the “heated discussions” around here are actually quite tame relative to other forums. The worst I saw was some of the negative posters may have been too quickly labeled trolls, which is unfortunate. Anyway, I hope every one regardless of their opinions keeps on posting…

#24

That’s it exactly. The only other way they could resolve Kara’s situation was to do a technobabble number that amounts to the same thing, and which I would have found annoying.

Side note: Safari recognizes the word “technobabble.” Gotta love those geeks in Cupertino.

#25

Wow loads of replies! I’ll try and group the responses into categories to save myself some time.

First thanks! Nice to meet you all.

@THX1966

As I said, a stale taste to a fine wine. The rest of the episode was a feast for the eyes :slight_smile: I especially enjoyed Chief’s revenge.

In regards to the Daniel fiasco, I hadn’t realised it was a bodge job, bit of a shame.

I see what most of you are getting at in regards to the ending being the best believable fit for the way they’d played it… but that doesn’t make it any better. I mean I was half expecting to see subtitles read “A wizard did it.”

More than that cop out feeling though, is the invalidation of the events told. If this Being has this kind of power to bring Kara back to life and “guide” Kara to an extent that she knows to type in a number off the top of her head that leads her to earth, suddenly the whole plot seems a bit pointless. I mean, why bother having it at all? Why not just give them the coordinates at the start? It’s less like subtlety behind the scenes whispering and watching, and more like forgetting the strings altogether, picking up the puppet, and throwing it at a planet, pristine newly created-from-air viper, n’ all…

The two big finds - Earth V1.0 and V2.0 were DIRECTLY caused by this God figure.

Yeah sure they learned lots along the way, but the plot just doesn’t have the power I’d hoped when viewed as a whole. They didn’t need to learn that, it feels more like a bored entity doing things on a whim than anything else. I mean sure things aren’t black and white, it always felt kinda like that, but it was at a nice balance as I mentioned before - both science and religion on the rope. Kara was a lead weight firmly on the metaphysical side, and really messed up the tightrope act as far as i’m concerned.

#26

Well, yeah, in a general sense. But it’s part of the organic process of writing. (If you haven’t done it yourself, it’s harder to understand. Things/Characters/Plots take on a life of their own. It’s immaterial whether that happens before or after you start putting stuff on film.)

I see what most of you are getting at in regards to the ending being the best believable fit for the way they’d played it… but that doesn’t make it any better. I mean I was half expecting to see subtitles read “A wizard did it.”

More than that cop out feeling though, is the invalidation of the events told. If this Being has this kind of power to bring Kara back to life and “guide” Kara to an extent that she knows to type in a number off the top of her head that leads her to earth, suddenly the whole plot seems a bit pointless. I mean, why bother having it at all? Why not just give them the coordinates at the start? It’s less like subtlety behind the scenes whispering and watching, and more like forgetting the strings altogether, picking up the puppet, and throwing it at a planet, pristine newly created-from-air viper, n’ all…

I don’t think it’s clear at all if Kara’s insight into Hera’s dots were the result of an intervention. It may have been merely an internal monologue (although, the abundance of Head characters may have made that confusing.)

The two big finds - Earth V1.0 and V2.0 were DIRECTLY caused by this God figure.

Again, it’s not at all clear if “god” is God here. “He doesn’t like to be called that.”

#27

I was, initially, disappointed and let down by Kara’s end. BUT I now LOVE the ambiguity of it - would we be talking about it now if it had all been tied up neatly? Ambiguity in art provokes discussion (e.g. What was the Mona Lisa smiling about? Was Deckard a replicant?) - so I’ve come to the conclusion that what initially appeared to be a cop out is actually an act of genius from Ron Moore & co. I can see myself, 10 years from now, discussing BSG over a pint in my local bar and the first point will be “what do you think Kara was?” It appears that Kara’s need to be remembered is cemented in that one act of non explanation!!

#28

Again, it’s not at all clear if “god” is God here. “He doesn’t like to be called that.”

And if IT is God or a god, then that quote becomes quite interesting in the context of “the god whose name cannot be spoken”. And given the religious subtext (actually, it may be more front and center than that) that “Caprica” will have, well - it all sure has my attention.

#29

“Why not just give them the coordinates from the start?” My take is that “God” or whatever brought Kara back wanted humanity to first find “Earf” as a kind of warning of the cyclical nature of their existence. Like to inspire them not to repeat the cycle when they ultimately arrive at Earth. And I think Kara was less an angel than an actual human Savior kind of figure. But I love reading everybody’s take. Though I’m not particularly against or upset by how they left Kara’s story, I can certainly understand many fans feeling a bit cheated. I’m just glad I didn’t call it and got to be surprised!

#30

Maybe I wouldn’t be so disappointed if we hadn’t been bombarded with the message, for the last year of “all will be revealed.”

#31

Yeah, but you have to remember that’s marketing, and not the creatives.

#32

@Lodestone Resonator

-My opinion that I’m expressing here is that it was a cheap simple way out for the writers, I don’t think that qualifies as artistic discussion.

@monster_jester

Yeah I’d considered that, human learning is all part of the “plan” - but that doesn’t cut it with me. Maybe I’m not the target audience of this programme; I’m not remotely spiritual. All the way through I’ve been considering the alternative meanings and causes, and they’ve been left open to me, which I’ve appreciated. This explanation we’re being fed is akin to “God works in mysterious ways” - a piece of plot which has no reasonable explanation. It’s the same plot hole that religion suffers from, and I dislike seeing it here. This isn’t interesting, or cool, there isn’t debate to happen over it, because we’re being told it’s “beyond us”.

The Kara line is such blinding and obvious proof of outside influence, that it removes most of the mystery and interest.

Oh, and also, how exactly does this powerful entity expect us knowing about the cycle of robot build / robot destroy in that generation to help mankind overall. Memory isn’t genetic.

@Pike (In reference to Daniel)

Ok sure it’s part of the process of writing, but plugging a plot hole with an explanation which in no way ties in with the rest of the plot is just a little lame.

“Again, it’s not at all clear if “god” is God here. “He doesn’t like to be called that.””

  • I meant from our perspective; any being with the kind of power that was demonstrated, can be termed God.

In reference to Kara’s reaction. Every action that this Greater Being wanted people to follow (through the song, the viper, Baltar picking the right spot to blow up the refinery) WAS followed. This can only lead me to believe this “Being” has the capacity to predict peoples actions based on events it knows/has planned to happen, and thereby directly influence events by placing the right markers at different points. Finding earth (both times) was purely the work of this being, purely the work of the coordinates he gave Kara. Hiding them in a simple puzzle is NOT subtle.

#33

I was thinking about how they found “Erf” and Earth - correct me if I missed something…

Boomer blows big holes in Galactica and vents most of the water to space…

Boomer Finds a planet with water so they have to go there…Kobal…where the tomb of Athena is…

Boomer leads everyone to the tomb of Athena so they can open it and find the 13th colony. (ERF)

It was Cavil’s pawn Boomer that got them the knowledge to find Earth (Erf)

The jump from the Cylon Colony to our Earth was inside the Red Line. they could not have jumped to Earth 2, had they not gone to the Colony to get Hera back from…oh yeah…Boomer.

I think when we see “the Plan” the end that we have already seen is going to get even better.

IMHO.

#34

The water planet wasn’t Kobol, it was an ice planet that Zarek’s men mined.

Boomer leads everyone to the tomb of Athena so they can open it and find the 13th colony. (ERF)

That was Athena (who hadn’t aquired that name yet.)

But your larger point is good. There are a lot of ways they can hook The Plan into the show.

#35

I’m standing by my assertion that Kara’s disappearance was an omage to The Sporanos ending. We’ve all heard RDM’s thoughts on that show and this was a way to sneak in a salute.

#36

OH yeah… Hey old age is a great thing… I get to remember things however i want so they make me feel better…:smiley:

#37

@THX1966

… all of that buildup is devalued greatly by the supply of a big neon light pointing to Erf and Earth at the end.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved the behind the scenes, coincidence based occurences that led them towards “Erf”(as you all seem to be calling it). But finishing this marvelously designed series of coincidences with “oh, it’s over there”, well, it’s just lame. None of the story advancing episodes featured a blatant obvious location. They all involved the kind of feeling you used to get lost in your car before GPS. You’re driving along, the suns over there so this way is north, just driving and trusting your instinct. Kara’s Viper was one big irritating GPS. I didn’t mind Erf so much though, I was willing to overlook that. I mean, they gotta find it somehow, and it was surrounded with some mystery about where the hell the viper was from and the whole final 5 being drawn to it thing.

But then they did it again with Earth. Oh, the song you’ve known all along is the coordinate of Earth. Wow, nice one.

Am I supposed to see that as ironic? Well it’s not, Cube was ironic, this was not.

#38

MrP - I see your points. AND I believe they are valid.

I think I have finaly come up with a way of saying, what I have been trying to say since ‘daybreak part 2’ aired. and its this…

I know RDM has enough information left that we don’t yet know, that he is able to make a 2 hour movie about it. I hope that when we learn these things, the ending we have already seen will take on a better meaning… like Kara’s resurection and sudden vanish…

I don’t think that we will learn something like… Daniel did it! (at least i hope not.) but I think we will learn something that will give it a less then the Almighty interference meaning.

So at this point I will say… If the movie ‘the Plan’ does not shed new light on these things, then I will agree with you completely. But for now I will hold out hope that these things are not completely as they seem now.

#39

That’s a very interesting way of looking at this and I had not thought of it quite like that. I did arrive at a similar conclusion, though from the opposite direction and taking a page from Futurama, rather than Clarke:

“If you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.”

#40

I don’t know what I like, but I know art!

Seriously, I have a lot less problem with Kara-as-Angel then I have with the idea that Lee would say, “Let’s give up all our technology” and 39,000 people would respond, “Gee, okay, what a good idea!”