Okay, I’ve gone through KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2. I’ve also read the Tales of the Jedi series. I’ve also seen all the movies and read the novelizations (Episode 3 was the best novelization I’ve ever read… it was better than the movie). I’ve read through the NJO series.
Is it just me or do the Jedi seem really, REALLY arrogant? I mean, I’m at the point where I really don’t like them. They keep secrets, they judge people, they tried to kill the Exile (KOTOR 2) because they didn’t understand him/her. I won’t even mention what happens in KOTOR 1.
I mean, if you read the Episode 3 novelization, Anakin started his turn to the dark side because the Jedi Council was unapproachable and refused to change (yeah, I said it). They FEAR love, just as the Sith reject it.
A thousand times. Yes. I played a pure light side Jedi in Kotor 2, but afterwards, I was so pissed at the council, I specifically played through as a sith lord the second time, and force choked/force lightening the remaining Jedi and Sith.
I concur. The Jedi in the games at the very least, seem to have grown too rigid and judgemental. I personally feel that maybe Vader’s destruction of them could be seen as a purge of sorts. I don’t know what the council became after Luke began training new people, but it seems to me that whenever anything grows big enough to need authority, it winds up losing something that made it precious and right.
I always eneded up being heavy on the light side, but not for want of listening to the council. Also, it kinda bugged me when Luke was in Degobah and Yoda is all about “Oh no, no…you can’t be halting your training to go help the suckas out.”
You’re totally on the mark Byan. I always sorta suspect this, but after diving into the expanded universe a bit, I’m totally convinced of it.
On one hand, I really appreciate the concept: do what’s right and make things better – as opposed to simply supporting one government group or another. But in the end they sort of end up as a bunch of lightsaber-wielding fickle bastards. Whiny Luke actually ends up being one of the least whiny later – though even he has his “rough spots.”
One thing’s certain, though: you don’t want to hang with Jedi. They might make things better for the universe, but for you? That’s another story.
I have to admit I just stick with the movies… but even in the movies, (particularly the prequels) the Jedi are stuck-up, know-it-all pain in the you know wheres. It’s a little scary to think that these controlling secretive “chosen ones” are supposed to be the good guys…
…so when watching the movies, I try not to think about it. It gets in the way of admiring the pretty lightsaber fights.
Yes I agree with this - the Jedi are much too arrogant. And much too cold in my opinion. I always think of the moment when Annikan goes to Yoda in Episode III and tells him about the dreams he’s been having and how he’s afraid someone he loves is going to die. And what is Yoda’s response? Is it concern or compassion? No. It’s bascially “suck it up and stop being emotional”
Yoda could have prevented what happend to Annikan later right there. Yoda gave him no choice but to find someone who would “feel his pain”.
I don’t know if it’s been addressed, as I’m not “Universe Savvy”, but I’d imagine that Jedi breeding would lead to a class of supermen/women with all the power, who are all related…like the Kennedys with telekinesis. I don’t think the rest of the populace would go for that…Picking and choosing new Jedis from the existing folk is harder, but fairer.
As far as I know there’ no Jedi ban on marriage. Hell, many of them are “Legacy” Jedi. Luke marries Mara – both Jedi – and has children that turn out to be Jedi.
I thought from the movies it was banned to be married… b ut with the books and after luke finds and trains jedi they can marry since he did not know that law…
I never thought of it like that. You are right. Thanks for the insight.
As far as Jedi love/marriage goes… Back in the ancient old republic there were marriages but around the time of the KOTOR game the Jedi started forbidding love and marriage. The basic idea is that Jedi should be emotionless. The reasoning behind that is that emotion and passion lead to the darkside. It was Anakin’s love for his mother that breed his hate and then fear of losing Padme that made him fall. I find the whole situation in the prequels fascinating. It was the two extremes of the Jedi denying their emotions and Anakin fully embracing his that led to the downfall of the Jedi. In the New Republic era Luke saw this truth and decided that Love and compassion was something that the Jedi greatly needed as a part of themselves as opposed these emotions being excised.
Yeah, exactly. As much as I despised Luke in the movies (well, he did do well in the latter part of Episode 5 and the last few minutes of Episode 6), I did admire his stance on love in the Extended Universe.
Maybe it’s the anti-authoritarian in me, but I have a problem with a “Council”. You can’t object to them, or else you’re an outcast. You can’t question them, because they are the LAW.
I guess my biggest problem with the Jedi is the fact that they are the “defenders of the Republic”. What if the Republic is wrong? It reminds me of the Stephen Decatur saying, “My country, may she be right or wrong, but my country.”
The Drew Karpyshyn Darth Bane books deal with this somewhat. Bane grew up in slaving in a mine (forgot what kind of ore) to pay off his father’s debts. His father was abusive and a drunk. Anyway, there was a massive war going on between the Army of Light (guess who) and the Brotherhood of Darkness (BTW, I think someone else pointed this out, but why is it that “evil” people have to be a brotherhood or legion or whatever???). Anyway, the Republic was fighting a stalemate war against the Sith. So, a Republic soldier attempts to recruit young Bane into the Republic army, talking about freedom and democracy. Bane says, essentially, “Why should I fight for the Republic? You talk about how hard life would be with the Sith in charge. Look at me. I’m forced to pay off another man’s debt for this corrupt corporation that is feeding your war machine. While I’m attempting to pay off this debt, the corporation is putting me into deeper debt because I have to eat. Forget your Republic. I would end up fighting for the privilege to be a slave!”
A bit later, he joined the Sith, changed the Sith doctrine to the Rule of Two and became the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy. Compared to Darths Bane, Revan, and Nihilus (who destroyed whole planets), Vader was a two-bit thug. But, each time the Sith rose up, it was because Jedi arrogance got to be too big. Don’t save your friends. Don’t get married. Don’t love. Don’t have fun. Say confusing crap (such as “Wherever the Exile travels, he takes his destination with him”).
Even though whenever I play KOTOR, I always take on the Light side traits (because the Dark side traits are over the top wrong), I still have no love for the Jedi. Perhaps I’m like Jolee Bindo… crotchety and independent.
Back to topic, I was checking out a bit of SW III this weekend, and it made me think even more about the whole Jedi arrogance subject. Is it just me, or do the Jedi seem to do their damnedest to make Anakin into a Sith?
The boy’s a bit confused, trying to figure out who he should trust. The Jedi’s response? “Kiss my ass (sb) some more, and we might let you hang with us.” He goes to Yoda for help with his vision, and Joda – with 900+ years of life experience no less – tells him “just forget everyone important to you and it’ll be fine.” Hell, I’d bet a quarter that 90% of the parents that read this forum would’ve said something like “Be careful! If you try to adjust your behavior to prevent the vision, you might make it happen. The best thing you can do is be a good person and do the right thing. That’s how you can avoid this. And by the way, please come back to me any time if you’re concerned again.”
But nope. They just pitch him to Palpatine – the only guy other than Obi-Wan who’ll even give him the time of day.
Not that I consider it a good thing, but it’s really, really hard to feel sorry for the Jedi – except the younglings, maybe – after pulling BS like that.
I have wondered about that too. But didn’t the council tell Qui-Jin that they wouldn’t accept Anakin into the training program and Qui-Jin decided to “un-officially” train him anyway. Soooo, couldn’t some of the arrogance, in the beginning anyway, be because he really wasn’t a student? Once they get to Episodes 2 and 3, Anakin seems more accepted as an apprentice but I wonder if he still wasn’t really a student? And if he wasn’t really a student, would the council still afford him the same attention and guidance as they would a regular student? I’m not saying that they didn’t wrong him by making him find his own way but that maybe that’s the reasoning the council uses for their “shunning”?
The reason why the Council didn’t want Anakin to be trained goes back to what we were talking about earlier about Jedi suppressing their . By the time of the Prequels came around the Jedi only took in children of the age of 2 or younger. The reason behind this is because at that early age they can mold the child to not form an attachment like parent and child. Anakin’s attachment to his mother is what ultimately caused him to fall.
Anakin became a full fledged padawan learner in EP.1. The thing that is different with Anakin is that he went strait into to becoming an Apprentice and skipped the formal training that Yoda gives to the younglings. I always wondered why Yoda changed his mind after everything went down on Naboo. My guess is that the fear of sensing the Sith presence caused Yoda to buy into the idea that Anakin would be their savior from this force.
Chuck you hit it on the head. The ideas and doctrine of the Jedi by this time had become so stagnant that they thought that they knew what was best for everyone. It was going to be their way or the highway. This doesn’t just apply to the Jedi either, but also their dealings with the Republic. This is why their connection to the force didn’t let them sense the Sith until it was too late. They are so far removed from the people that they became nothing but a police force.
