Throughout this whole argument about rights and laws I wish someone would loan me their copy of the Colonial Constitution they have.
Don’t worry about the heated thing. I know everyones up in arms right now. and my opinion is in the minority. so its cool 
i just look at this simply Adama was literally killing people to push this on the population. I see this and i dig my heels in cause. You don’t mess with civilians like that without the crap flying. you find a way to make the argument, or convince them. but you don’t make them submit like that.
That’s a valid point.
My worry, however, is the “what if” … or, more precisely, the “when, if” scenario of the Cavilry (thanks, GWC, LOVE that) showing up.
I think, ultimately, this goes back to a bad decision Adama and Roslin made at the beginning of the series … the choice (not favored by Adama at first) to keep a civilian government running rather than instituting martial law / state of emergency. If they’d done either, things would not be as they are now.
They’d still be unpleasant. But there’d be order.
And for those who think Adama’s not one to let go power, I think otherwise. He proved he was willing to follow the chain of command by submitting to Roslin’s civilian rule (however reluctantly, half-heartedly, and inconsistently). He was willing to do so again when Cain showed up. Only her unconscionable acts forced him otherwise. After all, SHE wouldn’t respect the chain of command (ie - Roslin as the legitimate head of a civilian gov’t, and, hence, Cain’s boss) and he had no naval administration to appeal to. And, when the people settled on New Crapcrica, he let many of his crew go even though it put a major crimper in his ability to defend the fleet and the new colony.
I think if/when they find a place to really live, Adama will be more than happy to shuck off responsibility for anything but the Big G … and, if he can find a worthy successor (Commander Helo? Commander Tigh??? … I mean, c’mon, you know Tigh’s not gonna get killed by a flash-bang grenade) he’ll probably step down from that too. Esp. if Roslin’s on her last legs.
Sanderlee
<continues to gnash his teeth at the general frak-nugget play Gaeta’s making and the hash he’s making of the fleet as a result>
Good point, but keep in mind…the days of Cain are long gone.
Nickname Boome–I see where your coming from, but here’s the problem. To me, the ends don’t always justify the means. While I aggree Adama needed to be taken down a peg, I don’t think Gata thought all of this throgh. I think tei thught it would be alot more sinmple then it was.
The major issue is the merines. I think some of these guys are really out for a new govermant. Take Racetrack. I sicnerely doubt she has any real disire to see Athina shot out of an airlock, after fco-piloting a Raptror or several months with her. She I think she wants a new gov ermant, and good for her.
Here’s the issue, most of these folks, would really rather just beat up people, rape cylosn, and throw folks out of airlocks. These people are only boudn together by someone to fight against. They are rebelling against Adama, but that doesn’t mean they give a crap about Zerek.
Look at Seelix.
So lets say everybody in the chain of command is gone. What do you do? Do you really think these jar heads are going to follow another leader like Zerek? Do you really think theri going to make some sort of alligence to Gata–a communications officer?
Ps: The true douches of this story arealya re those Sunshine boys…
I have to say, that is what is so sticky about this whole thing. Gaeta is RIGHT. It also would not have hurt Adama at all to get on the horn & ahve a conference call with the captains of the ships & give them the reasons for requiring them to have the new FTL drives. They would not have liked it, but at least they would know WHY it was being forced on them.
Gata might be right, but is a bunch of hired mercenaries really the right people for the job? You have to win hearts iand minds. Its more than just rounding up a bunch of people and throwing them out of airlocks. Plus, if I were a cylon and I saw Adama get shot out of an airlock, its back to outright war.
Again, its not the mutiny in theory thats a immoral, its the way they went about it that is really going to screw the whole fleet. Let’s not forget that Zerek is a terrorist, not a presdient Don’t be so quick to judge Adama, before you take a fine look at the boys and girls fighting for Zerek, and tell me if you want those douches to run your fleet.l
Well i’m sure the Mutineers run the gammit from principle, to raping psychopaths. Speaking of the Pegasus dude. (Not really sure why they kept him in the military at all?) I’m guessing that they showed him to amp up the danger for the prisoners… But (and oh Jebus I’m gonna catch all sorts of hell for this…) is Starbuck so much better right now? Starbuck is pretty much full on psychotic right now, not funny heavy drinking, cut off my hair psychotic but all out. I’m gonna kill anything. I’m in pain so you all’s gonna die now. and than make out with my boyfriend. and than well continue to kill with a smile on my face. scary psychotic.
now would I rather Have Adama and the battle hardened CIC crew in an Attack well sure by far they’re the most effective. but just because they are the most effective doesn’t mean no matter what they do you just have to take it. and thats what the fleet has been doing for a very long time now.
(gonna take some more hell for this one.) Zarek is a complete and utter douche, but no more than Roslin. And i think he’s a better leader than her, so i see the military functioning under him well.
At this point there all douches, both sides, everyone accept Jake; Jake is cool everyone else Douche
In situations like these you need warrios, Starbuck is not being psychotic, she’s being a warrior. You also need cooler heads in leadership to put the warriors in check when needed, ie: Adama. In order to put things back to rights, you need both of them.
I think we’re aggreeing on much more then w e disagree on. Adama is a douche, but if you put a gun to my head and focred me to choose, I’d be forced to follow Adama for the simple reason I trust the people below him morfe.
And that might be a pretty low way to looka t it. I think we our forced to choose the lesser of two evils. While Adama is a douche, I don’t think Zerek’s intentions are any more honarible (“They fall in line”))
I think Starbuck has to act like a solder, has to fightg. Shes not phycodic, shes doign ehr job. But,s he is not the one in charge. If Adama had the opinion about “lets kill everyone” you would have a problem. But, it was Adama who did not try and kill that merene.
I don’t agree that she’s in berzerker mode. I mean, she let Racetrack and a couple of Lee’s captors live rather than dusting them right there and then. And she could have, easily.
I’m not sure what this bodes for the fleet, the crew of the Galactica, and humanity in general, but Starbuck is right–these aren’t Adama’s crew anymore. The mutineers are the enemy. MAYBE once Adama and crew regain control (or those loyal to him do it for him, since he’s going to be stuck in … but not sucked OUT of … an airlock shortly) “cooler” heads will prevail. But, think about this. The cooler heads will be:
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Bill “I’m an old guy, I’m in pain, but I’m still bad-ass enough to get the drop on you” Adama.
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Laura “I’m Coming For All Of You!!!” Roslin
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Saul “Craaaap” Tigh
I mean, unless Lee or Helo end up in charge (and the latter is FAR preferable to the former at this point) we’re pretty much going to have a Princess Bridge moment, ie “There Will Be No Survivors.”
For one, I’m glad to see Starbuck back in touch with her martial side. She’s got a LOT of anger and angst to work out at the moment. Seem’s like fending off a mutiny is just the thing!
Personally I think the biggest governmental problem is Roslin.
She is a horribly weak president.
The president (this is assuming that they follow our basic governmental system. Colonies = states. President = Commander in Chief.)
For a while now Roslin has refused…REFUSED…to actually act as a full on president. In our society I believe they would have had an impeachment hearing at this point, removed her from office, and put someone who would actually act as a leader. She is sick, biased, and irresponsible. She allows the military leader to protect her like she is some ineffectual floozy.
If she was doing her job, then there would be votes on the drives.
If the vote was that no military organization should be allowed to enter the ship w/out the captains agreement, then she could veto it.
An overwhelming majority of the quorum could then vote to overturn her veto. (here it would be 11 : 1) .
Adama could then put the drive on every willing ship. He would most likely require that the tillium ship be required to have one, and most likely be captained by a military crew since it is a vital military target.
All would then be settled. Over time other ships may indeed become more willing to allow for the drives, seeing as how they would be left behind.
All this boils down to Roslin. It irks me so bad everytime Lee has to take info back to the quorum so that Roslin can be Adama’s sex kitten.
Either way its a case of extremes. Zarack is simply power hungry, and Adama is too quick to use a heavy hand.
I think what we really need here is a complete retooling of the govermant. In a ideal rule, I almost wouldn’t mind going for Helo as Comander. Now, you can all laugh, but I’m not even joking at this point. This will never happen (well…not at least untill Tigh and Adama would both die) but hey, it’d be cool
I think we really need to retool the govermant. What is the point of representing colonies that do not exist anymore? Wiipe out everybody, Zerek, Roslin, Adama. Let the people ellect new leaders.
Of course, standing where we are now this is impossible. I really do not know if the fleet can heal after this. Thsts what scares me, because I don’t even care who’s fault it was, anymore. Its Roslin and Adama faught for getting us into deep poop, but Zerek, and Gata are not the right guys to take down the govermant.
She’s smiling as she’s in a life or death, firefight with her fellow/former shipmates. people she’s lived with side by side for years. To me that means she’s six types of crackers.
Still she was completely awesome when she saved Lee.
Which is what Zarek has been advocating all along.
I personally can’t completely fault Roslin. I think she is having a realistic reaction to her situation. She is on her death bed, she has led the fleet a desolate empty shell of a planet which she thought was going to be their sanctuary. She is breaking down. I think thats brilliant what happend when she got off the Raptor and couldn’t say anything. She was at the point where she was completely broken.
Adama only broke for a little while. It was Dee’s suicide that broke him but i think Saul brought him back. I think he has been tying to lead the fleet but at the same time he is trying to fix Roslin. He knows he needs Roslin to lead the fleet.
Now i must admit that there have been some major problems. I think that there should have always been some sort of Martial law in place. From Day one i think the Tilium ship should have been under military control. In fact all necessary ships should have been under military control. Its may not be the best thing for a free culture but under the circumstances it is the most important thing for the survival of the human race.
I think Adama does have the ability to relinquish power once the get to a habitable planet. I don’t think he is power hungry as Sean seems to suggest. I think its actually the opposite. He has tried to shrug away power many times. He tried to resign when Bulldog came back. He was ready to retire in the mini series. I have always seen him as a reluctant leader, always questioning himself.
Zarek and Felix…i can’t trust them at all. They are both doing things for the wrong reasons. I don’t believe that Zarek has any intention of doing things for the good of the fleet. I think he is just trying to assume power. I think he would be even more of a dictator than Roslin. i could see him actually dissolving the Quarem. I could see him being more of a Caesar than an Obama. Felix i see is just a hate filled pawn of Zarek.
I, Like the Cylons have a plan
6 Steps to fleet wide peace
[ol]
[li]Let them eat steak (people are all messed up cause algae isn’t steak)[/li][li]fleet wide karaoke contests[/li][li]every third Tuesday someone from the poo barge gets to run the government for 10 minutes[/li][li]everyone gets to pet Jake. (It’s proven to be calming)[/li][li]As many sexy dance parties as possible[/li][li]and finally the final piece of the puzzle. is a piece of Pie a la mode[/li][/ol]
Once again im gonna disagree to some extent but in silly ways this time
Step 1. The problem there is the lack of cows…unless they eat the mutineers. Can we say Donner party 
Step 2. From my experience Karoke has made me want to commit more murder, but i worked Karoke and you can only hear My Way and I will always love you so many times…
Step 3. I like. But they must do it wearing roller skates and short shorts :eek:
Step 4. but punishment for badness is cleaning up after Jake.
Step 5. As long as i don’t have to dance i can totally embrace. My dancing typically involves injury and never to me.
Step 6. Everything is better a la mode.
There was once a very interesting (and by interesting, I mean embarrassing and possibly incriminating video) of me singing “beyond the sea.”
I don’t put much faith in Gaeta’s “noble intentions” of mutinying. I think he’s had a schism. He got his leg shot off because Adama/Roslin put their faith in Starbuck to find earth/erff, yet when they found it it was a wasteland. If that wasn’t bad enough it was a tada Cylon. Gaeta is the military side of a fleet wide mutiny. It’s not hard to see their point in that they see ALL cylons as machines (constructs) and had their families (children, parents, siblings and grandparents) murdered by the cylons. That’s not a concept that you can wake up one day 4 years later(not even considering New Caprica) and convince yourself that cylons are now our friends, in fact not hate them regardless of how they’ve joined the gang. It’s easy for us watching a show to call it racism or blind hatred.
As I see it the only solution to this is the “Common Enemy” idea wherein Cavil and the creeps show up and they have to fight them. It still doesn’t mean that the two factions will stay together after the fight. Maybe that’s the only way the cycle can repeat is if the combined races split only to beat the hell out of each other later on.
I have a bit of a dilemna with the storyline is about “The Cycle”. Wouldn’t they have to eliminate all of their history and memory of this whole big arc so that they’ll have vague prophecies religious rhetoric to describe the past? The whole number of humanity/cylon would have to be reduced to such a small number that they’re almost regressing to a technological level that prevents space travel again with whatever limited resources they have.
Completely retooling the government
I am on Emily’s side here. Yes, Zarek has been saying that the government needs to be restructured in order to make it subservient and responsible to the people. However, he has never put that goal before advancing his own profile. He’s tricksy, because he has been image-building rather than power-grabbing, but he has also spread his influence everywhere, so that he can easily and effectively manipulate the economy, the Quorum, and the military. He’s had plenty of chances to actually represent the people and he hasn’t done it. Instead, they are expected to “fall in line.” While he should not have been put in the brig, he basically admitted that he has been doing some shady stuff when he didn’t doubt that Adama really had dirt on him. He is not a worthy leader.
Here is the Starbuccaneer Plan for getting the fleet back on track given the circumstances as we know them today (after The Oath and before the next ep):
Lee is the key. The insurrection will play itself out to a certain degree, and he should stand back and let that happen without getting too involved in the military aspects. Then, before Roslin starts punishing people and exacting revenge, he needs to grab Kara (for the guns) and whoever on the Quorum votes with Zarek least often (for a second opinion) and corner her in his dad’s quarters. He needs to hash it out with her until she understands the effects of her actions (she will). He should tell her that no one can blame her for needing to give herself a break and take happiness where she can get it, but force her to realize that she can’t be President anymore if she’s going to do that. She also can’t stay President if she wants the fleet to move past the split and begin actually healing. Together they should make a plan for Roslin to resign the Presidency within, say, seven days. She should tell no one of the plan until then.
Next, Lee should take that Quorum member and ask him/her to begin brainstorming a fair process for a new election of an Interim President. That person would have Roslin’s basic role but be more answerable to the Quorum, and would be forced to hold an open election within 6 months of the time when the fleet finds a habitable planet OR when at least 8 of the 12 Q members vote no confidence. The Quorum member should be sent off to start shopping the concept with others independently.
Then, Lee needs to talk to Adama, if he’s alive. Adama must name his own successor in order for the military to trust their leader. Yes, many Marines and Viper pilots decided to mutiny, but the majority of the military is behind Adama. Bill could even resign as the supreme commander of the Colonial Fleet and still be an Admiral rather than being stripped of rank, but he can no longer be in charge of Galactica or the other vessels. Lee should push his father to anoint Karl Helo Agathon as the next Commander of the Galactica.
Helo has the moral and ethical core necessary to be a good leader. He has shown that he is able to connect with people and be compassionate (think about his relationships with Kara and Lee both) but also that he can make hard, wrenching, awful decisions when he must (shooting Athena, for example). He has had combat experience, away mission experience, flight experience, and executive experience. The only time he’s really frakked up is that he didn’t realize that Sharon was a Cylon despite the fact that it was painfully obvious, but he’s come a long way since Caprica.
After all this, Lee needs to talk to Baltar about what he thinks that the fleet wants. Despite the fact that Baltar is a sniveling, slimy doucheface, he hears more of the hopes and fears of the people than anyone else. Lee should listen to what he has heard, and take it with the appropriate grain of salt. Tablespoon.
Then, Lee needs to go talk to Romo Lampkin and discuss what a legal system might look like in a transitional period.
Next, he needs to head to the Market (it’s not black since there’s no formal economy for it to be shadowing) and get a couple new suits and get a hair cut.
Penultimately, he needs to speak with the Cylons who are interested in an alliance. He needs to assure them that he will continue to work on bringing the fleet around to agree with an alliance, but ask them to be patient with the process. It is also in their interest to stick with the humans, both for their religious reasons and because after having broken from the rest of the Cylons and sustaining such major damage, they need to look seriously at settling as well.
Finally, he needs to be in touch with the Quorum every single day, in order to make the point that he’s going to be an above-board player and to keep his finger on that pulse and see what’s going on.
When Roslin announces her resignation and the Quorum lays out how an election will take place, Lee should run. I believe he’ll win over Zarek.
Then, if he follows his gut, builds a circle of advisers and actually listens to them, and keeps his focus on the fleet’s need to settle, I think he could be a great leader.