Seconded
And here be filler text spoken like a pirate…arrrrr
ok, i have not read all 10 pages of the thread, so sorry if this has been mentioned, BUT…
the guy who plays the bad doctor will be playing dr. silberman in the next sarah connor chronicals.
now i will go read the thread and then delete this if it was mentioned 
He is also the doctor on Knight Rider! He seems to be stuck in an acting rut.
jewel = very hot. needs to gain about 5 pounds, and lose that foofy hair.
she has what we around here call ‘parma hair’
the Warhammer 40,000 series? www.blacklibrary.com ?
I remember seeing the Warhammer 40,000 movie. It wasn’t exactly a B movie, it was a D movie! But I never really got into that genre, anyway.
She should be the computer’s voice on the Enterprise … or a Klingon ship, she does a good Klingon impression.
yeah thats the stuff. I still play the games.
Battletech as well…classic stuff not that clicky junk.
Any case…the movie? Daminatus? Would love to hear your review of it. Not possible to see across the pond as far as I know.
She should be the computer’s voice on the Enterprise … or a Klingon ship, she does a good Klingon impression
I am thinking ringtones or perhaps a suite of sounds for a home PC?
ok, but why would that be irksome to Europeans? A lot of my friends were deeply into Warhammer in like 5th grade, 6th grade, I just never got into it, I built Star Trek models at that time.
Battletech as well…classic stuff not that clicky junk.
I read one Battletech novel, can’t remember the title for the life of me, though, it was also pretty okay, it’s just that it was given to me as a present and I never really committed to reading huge series of novels, like, e.g. I read the first Honor Harrington novel, because I was curious, but I didn’t feel like reading the entire series.
Any case…the movie? Daminatus? Would love to hear your review of it. Not possible to see across the pond as far as I know.
Ah, no, I was talking about FOR THE CAUSE - which, as I said, was pretty cheap SciFi, nice stuff if you’re already half-dozing off, but maybe it has more appeal for people who are fans of the genre.
I am thinking ringtones or perhaps a suite of sounds for a home PC?
woah, if my exams were already over and I had more time, I would SO make a GWC soundboard and prank-call people!
Edit: no of course, I wouldn’t, but admittedly, it’s a funny idea
My mistake then. Apologies. When something is as popular as Warhammer it tends to be in less favor here in the states. I just assumed the “evil empire” mentality was universal…we Americans see conspiracies everywhere. Its an anti-conformity issue we never got over.
thenewguy - Let me explain it this way. Let’s say that we lived in a world where, for centuries, men were considered weenies, not able to defend themselves, too emotional, weak, and better to be looked at than heard. Now let’s say men are just starting to have a say in the type of art they consume, yet a lot of people (especially dominant women) are not interested in what the men have to say and prefer to keep things they way they’ve always been. Here lies your answer.
That sounds kind of harsh, GR. Surely we appreciate our privileged societies, but…
Not trying to pick on you here, thenewguy, but this kind of talk is what we could refer to as backlash against societal change. That is, preferring that everyone just settle down and accept the old status quo. I respect your right to enjoy entertainment a certain way. But, trust me, if you had always been left out of that target audience because you weren’t considered the standard tough, white, straight guy, you might appreciate art that, for once, speaks to you a little bit too. And when the people who’ve always been the ones sci-fi speaks to complain that the new stuff and the new conversation makes them uncomfortable, the role of the progressive is to say: Good. Sometimes in order to make positive change we have to suffer discomfort.
Thank you (and thenewguy too) - I have been told I have a “beguiling” voice. 
chicks always look me over like a hunk of meat. I wanna be respected for my mind, not my body.
First, you can’t pick on me…thick skinned here.
The interesting thing is that no one really knows what I am. My background I mean. I could be African American, Native American, or my sexual orientation…yet I think what you are saying, Audra (and please correct me) is that Literature (emphasis on Sci FI) is a medium for social change or a reflection of ourselves.
For me? Its simply a way of escaping. Something I don’t have to think about. Having been the victim of a classical education I tire of the
not possible.
Really? How? And how do you know I do not? The implication in what you are saying is that Sci Fi (in this case) is a vehicle for change. Perhaps you are right but…most times…a cigar is just a cigar.
I prefer to live life by a simple credo. You can’t roll up your sleeves if you are wringing your hands.
As to the rest there is really no way to respond, but I get your point, even though I think you missed mine.
Granted it was probably poorly expressed, as I am in the middle of a deadline with a publisher and have a lack of prose at the moment.
Just for once Id like a woman to like me for my body and not for my personality. I guess this is that “one man’s trash is another man’s treasure,” type thing.
[Quote]:Originally Posted by thenewguy
For some reason some want to see women in roles men held. Why? There are so many other things to be explored.
thenewguy - Let me explain it this way. Let’s say that we lived in a world where, for centuries, men were considered weenies, not able to defend themselves, too emotional, weak, and better to be looked at than heard. Now let’s say men are just starting to have a say in the type of art they consume, yet a lot of people (especially dominant women) are not interested in what the men have to say and prefer to keep things they way they’ve always been. Here lies your answer.[/quote]
If it were just a case of ‘revenge’ (probably not quite the right word but you get what I mean) I think we would have tired of seeing shows with females occupying male roles a long time ago, the reason this theme is still so prelevant is because its a prevelant issue in real life still, I mean men still earn more than woman on average and get high positions quicker and women with power are still sort of ‘demonised’. In my opinion I would say the issue of putting women in a ‘mans’ role isn’t about trying to right a wrong but is about providing role models and affirmation for women. I mean women commanders and leaders in film and television is usually universally great, wise but compassionate, and are never shown as drunk, sexist, weak, bloodthirsty or evil like a good proportion of male leaders are shown to be.
Point in case the M’s in James Bond, you look at the two male M’s and they were both a bit sexist and whilst ok just didn’t quite seem to be the men you want in control of the license to kill-ers. Judy Dench on the other hand was more than a match for Bond, she was smart, capable of keeping people in line but also loyal.
I guess I’m just taking the optimistic approach.
I can totally see that. But that doesn’t mean that it’s anybody’s obligation to write fiction that will challenge these beliefs. If they do and people like it that’s okay, but if they don’t and instead choose to write real chauvi scifi or what have you and people like it, too - then there’s no harm done. I mean, the freedom of speech does apply to all fiction, doesn’t it?
That sounds kind of harsh, GR. Surely we appreciate our privileged societies, but…
of course it’s harsh. it was meant to be harsh in quite a matter-of-factly way, because that’s the harsh reality of it. none of us would want to voluntarily change places with, say, an Ethiopian. At least I admit that I wouldn’t. And I don’t see a need to sweep this attitude under the rug. Does that make me a worse person? I don’t know. It comes down to plain luck where you were born.
Not trying to pick on you here, thenewguy, but this kind of talk is what we could refer to as backlash against societal change. That is, preferring that everyone just settle down and accept the old status quo. I respect your right to enjoy entertainment a certain way. But, trust me, if you had always been left out of that target audience because you weren’t considered the standard tough, white, straight guy, you might appreciate art that, for once, speaks to you a little bit too. And when the people who’ve always been the ones sci-fi speaks to complain that the new stuff and the new conversation makes them uncomfortable, the role of the progressive is to say: Good. Sometimes in order to make positive change we have to suffer discomfort.
Hm, it’s just too alluring to play the devil’s advocat here:
Men and women are not identical. They were not created to be alike, male and female are the opposite ends of a spectrum. Think of them as the two poles of a magnet. Plus and minus. Therefore, attraction. Men and women will gravitate to one another because of a small genetic difference that makes all the difference. I’m not saying that any sex is inferior to the other or that they shouldn’t have equal rights, no, but they can’t be expected to work and think the same way. And once you accept that, it makes things a lot easier, I think. There are certain behavior patterns that are just rooted SO deeply in our genes that no societal change whatsoever will ever overcome them. Go ask a neurologist to tell you about how differently male and female brains work, how differently they receive neural/sensoral inputs, how differently they reacted to certain stimuli. It would be a delusion to believe that the ultimate goal could be to make men and women identical. Hell, I wouldn’t wanna live in such a world, where would all the fun be? With every piece of art and/or fiction, there will always be people who won’t like, whom it just won’t appeal to, men AND women. I’m sure there’s lots of women out there who like BSG just the way it is. What’s more, I don’t think that art can ever be a vessel for societal change. Art can be the reflection of what a society is like at a certain moment in time or what the state of one mind is like at a certain point of time. But art doesn’t shape societies, it’s the societies that create art, not vice versa.
Plus: who gets to define what is “progressive” and what is not. or what is “positive change” and what is not? maybe one person’s progressive is another person’s conservative and one person’s positive change is another person’s negative change. in the end we’re all biased in some kind and none of us is truly impartial. so we’ll have to go with what the majority wants and if the majority is willing to watch BSG the way it is, that’s fine. if the majority thought BSG sucked, for whatever reason, they wouldn’t watch it and show’d get canceled. on the other hand, maybe even more people would watch BSG if they would take a real hard-core feminist stand? but we won’t know until the writers have tried.
Edit: TheNewGuy, I’m totally with you, we shouldn’t nitpick on every little thing in BSG - and we wouldn’t be if it weren’t for the everlasting hiatus. the gender question is just one issues among a dozen other cool things that BSG has to offer and I for one feel that it’s more rewarding to talk about the mythos in general or political issues than gender roles. I’ll come right out and admit it, it’s okay to talk about that too, for a while, but it’s not like here’s a problem that we could solve by endlessly taking the show apart. literary criticism is not an end in itself. what we really is NEW EPISODES!
literary criticism not an end in itself? you’ve just invalidated four years of undergrad and 3 of grad school
Thenewguy, you’re absolutely right. I don’t know anything about your background, and it shouldn’t matter to the argument. What I meant to convey was that “one” (anyone) who isn’t used to being marginalized in some of these ways might have difficulty understanding why it’s so important for people on the margins to see themselves reflected positively, if at all, in art like sci-fi. But honestly, I recognize that it’s wrong to classify even those folks in the middle - the straight white men - as people who don’t understand this. So I definitely take back that implication.
Also, I did not mean to imply that literature, sci-fi, or art should be a vehicle for social change. It can be a lot of things, with entertainment hopefully at the top (for me). I just mean that the audience members who give time, money, and devotion to to sci-fi would ideally be able to enjoy art that addresses real-life people and issues in a tolerant, humane way. It doesn’t have to be a medium for change, but art can reinforce negative stereotypes and some people have to accept the unfairness that leaves them (and people like them) out of the picture.
Completely agreed. I think what was suggested was that people wanted to see women in roles that were traditionally reserved for men. That’s not the same as women trying to be men.
Hmm, I admit I’m not prepared to define “progressive” in an objective way. However, I don’t think it means whatever anyone wants - I truly believe that there are ways to identify what’s right and wrong, like in the case of arguing that people on the margins understandably appreciate art that reflects their lives, desires, and perceptions as well as others’. And how do we know what’s right and wrong? You’re right; it’s biased. Culturally biased, and biased in other ways. But even though everyone has his or her own relative view of the world, there are some things, and this is my belief, that are just right or wrong. I refer to some excerpts below of Martin Luther King’s “Letter from Birmingham Jail” (1963), in which he talks about identifying injustice and the obligation to stand up for what’s right:
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial “outside agitator” idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds…
But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood…
Let us consider a more concrete example of just and unjust laws. An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself. This is sameness made legal."
Its all good…I have strawberry shortcake.
haha, yeah, the same over here. I mean, I’m also an English major, but my other major is history and from historiography I’ve learned that you don’t study history or do research about the past just because that’s what historians do, no, you do it because the more complete our knowledge about the past is, the more complete our knowledge about ourselves will be. “just because the past is there” is not justification enough to study it, you want to get meaningful cognitions out of it - “was it always this way?” “what was the development from A to B to C like, what caused it and what ended it?” etc.
literary criticism oftentimes tends to stay in an ivory tower, without realizing that the end is not in the criticism itself, the end is in providing people with the means to explore literature more deeply instead of postulating theories of whom they think that they are unsurpassable by other theories. like I can’t stand all the trench warfare between New Historicists and Cultural Materialists, but of course the ultimate example for “lit. criticism is not an end in itself” would be positivism.
Audra:
I appreciate everything you’ve said, you’ve brought a whole lot to this discussion, but I feel like we’re at a dead end here. I think it’s either an endless discussion going around in circles or we’ll just have to accept that we’re touching on questions here that just don’t have one single valid answer, they either have several or none, they’re just open. “What is progressive, what is justice, what is the conditio humana, who is god?”
I’m not saying that I won’t discuss all this any further, it’s just that I know that we’re all having very different points of view about the feminism issue.
I wish I had strawberries now. But I’m gonna eat an orange for breakfast now.
So this single story of the series makes me cringe consistently- the way that Jayne grunts, “I’ll be in my bunk” makes me vomit a little bit in my mouth. On the other hand, as the GWC crew has reminded us, you know it’s bad when Jayne’s the only one on your side. Basically, I think the story about Inara’s female client didn’t go what it was intended to do: subvert the super-upsetting trivialization of lesbians in pop culture by portraying them exclusively for the purpose of titillating straight men. And Inara speaks to that, later, when she and the counselor are in bed; she says, “When I take a female patron, I do it for myself.”
What makes the whole thing fall flat is that the only person on Serenity who isn’t affected by the appearance of Inara’s lesbian lover is Zoe. Even Kaylee objectifies them, though it isn’t about sexism in her case, just about using them as representations of the elegance and grace that she desires. With Mal, the same kind of sexist response that Jayne has is present, but you can also tell that he’s more jealous of Inara’s clients in general. He has resigned himself to the men, but is surprised and more bothered by the woman.
Anyhow, Trillian, right on. On the other hand, Firefly is definitely my second favorite tv show. As others have said, Joss Whedon and Firefly are generally extremely positive proponents of gender equality.
We should find this person and bribe him/her to never take part in another focus group or survey every again.
Wrong branch of armour, dewd…
The real fun comes with the true lord of the battlefield… where the CP have to compute for the rotation of the earth during the flight time of the shells
You know you love us, just make sure you speak up when you talk to us, because you know the old Good Morning Vietnam joke… its funny…because its true.