GWC Podcast #86

I can totally see that. But that doesn’t mean that it’s anybody’s obligation to write fiction that will challenge these beliefs. If they do and people like it that’s okay, but if they don’t and instead choose to write real chauvi scifi or what have you and people like it, too - then there’s no harm done. I mean, the freedom of speech does apply to all fiction, doesn’t it?

That sounds kind of harsh, GR. Surely we appreciate our privileged societies, but…

of course it’s harsh. it was meant to be harsh in quite a matter-of-factly way, because that’s the harsh reality of it. none of us would want to voluntarily change places with, say, an Ethiopian. At least I admit that I wouldn’t. And I don’t see a need to sweep this attitude under the rug. Does that make me a worse person? I don’t know. It comes down to plain luck where you were born.

Not trying to pick on you here, thenewguy, but this kind of talk is what we could refer to as backlash against societal change. That is, preferring that everyone just settle down and accept the old status quo. I respect your right to enjoy entertainment a certain way. But, trust me, if you had always been left out of that target audience because you weren’t considered the standard tough, white, straight guy, you might appreciate art that, for once, speaks to you a little bit too. And when the people who’ve always been the ones sci-fi speaks to complain that the new stuff and the new conversation makes them uncomfortable, the role of the progressive is to say: Good. Sometimes in order to make positive change we have to suffer discomfort.

Hm, it’s just too alluring to play the devil’s advocat here:

Men and women are not identical. They were not created to be alike, male and female are the opposite ends of a spectrum. Think of them as the two poles of a magnet. Plus and minus. Therefore, attraction. Men and women will gravitate to one another because of a small genetic difference that makes all the difference. I’m not saying that any sex is inferior to the other or that they shouldn’t have equal rights, no, but they can’t be expected to work and think the same way. And once you accept that, it makes things a lot easier, I think. There are certain behavior patterns that are just rooted SO deeply in our genes that no societal change whatsoever will ever overcome them. Go ask a neurologist to tell you about how differently male and female brains work, how differently they receive neural/sensoral inputs, how differently they reacted to certain stimuli. It would be a delusion to believe that the ultimate goal could be to make men and women identical. Hell, I wouldn’t wanna live in such a world, where would all the fun be? With every piece of art and/or fiction, there will always be people who won’t like, whom it just won’t appeal to, men AND women. I’m sure there’s lots of women out there who like BSG just the way it is. What’s more, I don’t think that art can ever be a vessel for societal change. Art can be the reflection of what a society is like at a certain moment in time or what the state of one mind is like at a certain point of time. But art doesn’t shape societies, it’s the societies that create art, not vice versa.
Plus: who gets to define what is “progressive” and what is not. or what is “positive change” and what is not? maybe one person’s progressive is another person’s conservative and one person’s positive change is another person’s negative change. in the end we’re all biased in some kind and none of us is truly impartial. so we’ll have to go with what the majority wants and if the majority is willing to watch BSG the way it is, that’s fine. if the majority thought BSG sucked, for whatever reason, they wouldn’t watch it and show’d get canceled. on the other hand, maybe even more people would watch BSG if they would take a real hard-core feminist stand? but we won’t know until the writers have tried.

Edit: TheNewGuy, I’m totally with you, we shouldn’t nitpick on every little thing in BSG - and we wouldn’t be if it weren’t for the everlasting hiatus. the gender question is just one issues among a dozen other cool things that BSG has to offer and I for one feel that it’s more rewarding to talk about the mythos in general or political issues than gender roles. I’ll come right out and admit it, it’s okay to talk about that too, for a while, but it’s not like here’s a problem that we could solve by endlessly taking the show apart. literary criticism is not an end in itself. what we really is NEW EPISODES!

literary criticism not an end in itself? you’ve just invalidated four years of undergrad and 3 of grad school

Thenewguy, you’re absolutely right. I don’t know anything about your background, and it shouldn’t matter to the argument. What I meant to convey was that “one” (anyone) who isn’t used to being marginalized in some of these ways might have difficulty understanding why it’s so important for people on the margins to see themselves reflected positively, if at all, in art like sci-fi. But honestly, I recognize that it’s wrong to classify even those folks in the middle - the straight white men - as people who don’t understand this. So I definitely take back that implication.

Also, I did not mean to imply that literature, sci-fi, or art should be a vehicle for social change. It can be a lot of things, with entertainment hopefully at the top (for me). I just mean that the audience members who give time, money, and devotion to to sci-fi would ideally be able to enjoy art that addresses real-life people and issues in a tolerant, humane way. It doesn’t have to be a medium for change, but art can reinforce negative stereotypes and some people have to accept the unfairness that leaves them (and people like them) out of the picture.

Completely agreed. I think what was suggested was that people wanted to see women in roles that were traditionally reserved for men. That’s not the same as women trying to be men.

Hmm, I admit I’m not prepared to define “progressive” in an objective way. However, I don’t think it means whatever anyone wants - I truly believe that there are ways to identify what’s right and wrong, like in the case of arguing that people on the margins understandably appreciate art that reflects their lives, desires, and perceptions as well as others’. And how do we know what’s right and wrong? You’re right; it’s biased. Culturally biased, and biased in other ways. But even though everyone has his or her own relative view of the world, there are some things, and this is my belief, that are just right or wrong. I refer to some excerpts below of Martin Luther King’s “Letter from Birmingham Jail” (1963), in which he talks about identifying injustice and the obligation to stand up for what’s right:

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial “outside agitator” idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds…

But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood…

Let us consider a more concrete example of just and unjust laws. An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself. This is sameness made legal."

http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html

Its all good…I have strawberry shortcake.

haha, yeah, the same over here. I mean, I’m also an English major, but my other major is history and from historiography I’ve learned that you don’t study history or do research about the past just because that’s what historians do, no, you do it because the more complete our knowledge about the past is, the more complete our knowledge about ourselves will be. “just because the past is there” is not justification enough to study it, you want to get meaningful cognitions out of it - “was it always this way?” “what was the development from A to B to C like, what caused it and what ended it?” etc.
literary criticism oftentimes tends to stay in an ivory tower, without realizing that the end is not in the criticism itself, the end is in providing people with the means to explore literature more deeply instead of postulating theories of whom they think that they are unsurpassable by other theories. like I can’t stand all the trench warfare between New Historicists and Cultural Materialists, but of course the ultimate example for “lit. criticism is not an end in itself” would be positivism.

Audra:

I appreciate everything you’ve said, you’ve brought a whole lot to this discussion, but I feel like we’re at a dead end here. I think it’s either an endless discussion going around in circles or we’ll just have to accept that we’re touching on questions here that just don’t have one single valid answer, they either have several or none, they’re just open. “What is progressive, what is justice, what is the conditio humana, who is god?”
I’m not saying that I won’t discuss all this any further, it’s just that I know that we’re all having very different points of view about the feminism issue.

I wish I had strawberries now. But I’m gonna eat an orange for breakfast now.

So this single story of the series makes me cringe consistently- the way that Jayne grunts, “I’ll be in my bunk” makes me vomit a little bit in my mouth. On the other hand, as the GWC crew has reminded us, you know it’s bad when Jayne’s the only one on your side. Basically, I think the story about Inara’s female client didn’t go what it was intended to do: subvert the super-upsetting trivialization of lesbians in pop culture by portraying them exclusively for the purpose of titillating straight men. And Inara speaks to that, later, when she and the counselor are in bed; she says, “When I take a female patron, I do it for myself.”

What makes the whole thing fall flat is that the only person on Serenity who isn’t affected by the appearance of Inara’s lesbian lover is Zoe. Even Kaylee objectifies them, though it isn’t about sexism in her case, just about using them as representations of the elegance and grace that she desires. With Mal, the same kind of sexist response that Jayne has is present, but you can also tell that he’s more jealous of Inara’s clients in general. He has resigned himself to the men, but is surprised and more bothered by the woman.

Anyhow, Trillian, right on. On the other hand, Firefly is definitely my second favorite tv show. As others have said, Joss Whedon and Firefly are generally extremely positive proponents of gender equality.

We should find this person and bribe him/her to never take part in another focus group or survey every again.

Wrong branch of armour, dewd…

The real fun comes with the true lord of the battlefield… where the CP have to compute for the rotation of the earth during the flight time of the shells :smiley:

You know you love us, just make sure you speak up when you talk to us, because you know the old Good Morning Vietnam joke… its funny…because its true.

Every morning pretty much, as I walked from the tube station to my workplace in London, I had to run the gauntlet either of chuggers (charity muggers) or clipboard wielding survey-monkeys.

The poor bastards (usually seems to be students trying to earn a crust or 2 to finance their studentishness, which i’m not going near, I don’t need the flaming) have their ‘orders’ from who the powers that be for whatever product/service they’re trying to survey on. So for instance if they are doing surveys for FOX on what shows people watch on Sky One, they may well have been given instructions to the effect of 'no women with strollers, no OAPs, yadda yadda)… which is bad enough in itself, because, of course, no mothers want to watch sky one do they (can anyone say self-fulfilling prophecy)… and in the subset they are willing to solicit the views on, what they’ll receive is the subset of people who actually can be arsed to have 10 minutes out of their life at random.

Anyway… not sure what I was getting at, but my point is, I think, that not only are the people who do their surveys often, in the view of more ‘progressive’ people, a bit lame, but the studios WANT those viewpoints only, as that represents ‘the mass market’… gah!

IMO its worth picking up more of the Honor Harrington series - it takes a couple of books before it picks up, and also Baen have the series for purchase as ebooks - the barstewards got me good with that one - way too easy to just say ‘wellll i’ll just buy the next one and download it to PDA’

okay, that’s fair. it’s just that - as I said before on the forums here somewhere - I have a real problem with committing to a series of novels, because I want variety and there’s so much other cool stuff on my reading list that I would have a bad conscience just focusing on one particular series of novels. My next scifi reads are going to be Space Merchants, Downbelow Station (written by a woman and featuring a female protagonist, so this should fit nicely into the context of this thread, I’m looking forward to it, I have heard a lot of cool things about this book), [COLOR=silver]Star Trek [/COLOR]Masks (a re-read), The Cold Equations and maybe a re-read of Neuromancer because I read that while in hospital and under the influence of painkillers in a half-delirium state of mind, so I don’t really remember much. Plus, JLA New Frontier, but that’s not really scifi.

For my part I liked Neuromancer, but ultimately wasn’t that bowled over by its successors… I guess I’m just a punk, not cyber-punk.

Series’’’’’ of novels do tick me off also - especially if I find myself committed to a series and reading whole books of tripe just to get to some gold. Elizabeth Moon has done some nice readable sequences, and also some more standalone novels which stand up well. Particularly if you have any association with people with Asperger’s/autism with one novel which I unfortunately can’t remember the name of, but if anyone wants to know I’ll be able to look on my bookshelf and edit in - its particularly significant because I seem to recall a mention her son (could be wrong, memory like a goldfish) is autistic.

Another good one iirc is the Fisherman series by David Fein<something> (once again - i’;; edit/reply if asked as i’m not at home but its on the bookshelf.
hmm… perhaps I ought to go haunt the group-read threads :smiley:

Really? I liked Count Zero even better.

Like I say… maybe it just marks me out as a punk, but especially looking back with hindsight, I think I have a preference moving more towards silver age SF generally.

Please define “silver age SF.”

Wikipedia has an entry about the Golden Age of SF, saying that it ended around the time of Sputnik 1 (1957), followed by a second era that remains unspecified and it’s also not certain whether or not that second era ended at some point in time or is still continuing today.

That’s what I thought was silver age - I’m no expert though

So what you meant was older scifi in general? the classics, Asimov, Heinlein, Lem, Clarke, etc.?

Yeah so Im back for the moment, damn real life taking over and all. Been catching up with the podcasts and funnily enough the only thing that seemed to stick was the use of the word wanker - so here are more british swears :slight_smile:

arse
tosspot
bugger
bollocks
sod

There are ruder I suppose but I will leave those… interesting that you can’t swear on american tv (but you can be violent and have sex? weird, but i digress) but these words were used often on buffy by giles or spike.

I do so enjoy that aspect of US TV - UK Native TV nowadays seems to have a pretty relaxed attitude to swearing - pretty much anything goes after 9pm anything

Not sure how I feel about that, as a parent

And of course then there’s Firefly with all its Mandarin swears, which in commentary etc the cast acknowledge as an excellent way to finess the US FCC language filters

Oh yes… and then there’s BSG with its ipod of torture sex scene etc, glowing backs, yadda yadda yadda… but you have to say ‘frak’ instead of what you really mean… I mean really :\