GWC Podcast #151: BSG 4.5 No Exit

I don’t know Chuck, I think you’re being unrealistic about how leaders have to operate. Executives have to be a bit bossy and autocratic. Good ones temper is with the positives you admire, but they’re always pragmatic, even opportunistic. This was true of FDR, of Lincoln, and many, many others.

Furthermore, I think the show has what might be termed a anti-idealistic Weltanschauung, which you can see most clearly in Gaeta’s story, especially on New Caprica and since. Roslin’s probably speaking for RDM when she tells Lee, “My only concern about you is you’re so hell-bent on doing the right thing that you sometimes don’t do the smart thing.”

Or as Bismark said:

Laws are like sausages — it is best not to see them being made.

“Rawslin” is more street.

I’ve only wartched the episode once and not entirely digested it, BUT…

How did the Tighlons learn the new colonies were experimenting with AI? Once they learned, why did they have to high-tail it halfway across the 'verse over 1,000 or so years (or some relative equivalent thereof)? Couldn’t they send back some kind of message via the medium that gave them the news in the first place? Maybe send a text to Earf, like…

“Colonies, AI xperiment bad idea, holocaust imminent, cycle will repeat. Learn frm last time? xoxo Ellen. ps. Call Cavil ‘John’ he hates it LOL”?

How about Hugo (as in Chavez) Roslin?

(And I am smiling, 'Timer. A sense of humor is required, especially among those watching the last episodes of this show.)

You’ve got that right.

Update: Maybe I’ll give my iPhone a go at it. It seems to have great (incorrect) alternatives for everything else. :slight_smile:

No need. Just ask me what I think is going to happen. As noted, I read any spoiler I can get my hands on, and still never come close to getting what’s next correct.

I think the 5 just assumed that as the Kobolians experimented with AI to their doom, and the 13th Colony repeated the same mistake, that the 12 Colonies were also likely to go down that path as well.

My brain is whirling like the spinney ship. I loved Audra’s catch of the Apple = Tree of Knowledge allusion. I had an hour philosophical conversation after the show about “creator” versus “god”. Because if the Centurions (or is it Centaurians?) know that man is their creator but not their god than what is the nature of the Cylon god. Does Ellen believe in the one true god or did she just think that their creation of this belief was a sign that the Centurions could be trusted with resurrection knowledge? How did the Centurions come to the knowledge of this god anyway?

I really wish I could make it to the get-together in Texas. I think the discussions are going to be fascinating.

Relativity’s a funny thing. Not only does time get slower, but length (along the vector of travel) gets shorter and mass gets heavier. This is all from the POV of an outside (i.e. not experiencing acceleration) observer, of course.

Leaving out acceleration time (which is actually pretty negligible for long voyages as long as you have a very, very, very large source of energy… more on that later), you can figure out by what factor time slows, length shortens and mass increases by plugging this formula (the Lorentz Transformation) into Excel:

=1/SQRT(1-(A1/100)^2)
Where A1 contains the percentage of light speed you’re traveling.

Try it and you’ll see the truly dramatic effects come as you pass 99% of lightspeed. At 99%, time is 7 times slower; at 99.9% it’s 22 times slower, at 99.99% it’s 71 times slower, etc. As you keep adding 9’s at the end, the increase gets pretty dramatic… it’s what’s called an asymptotic curve. If the final five wanted to make a 2,000-year voyage (i.e. a voyage of 2,000 light years) in only one year, they’d have to travel 99.9999875% of the speed of light.

The problem in all this is energy. If time’s slowed down 2,000 times, your mass has increased 2,000 times. (You don’t feel heavier, it’s what’s termed “relativistic mass”). That means you need 2,000 times the force for an incremental change in acceleration than you need at rest. So it actually ends up costing you more energy to increase from, say, 99.9% to 99.99% of lightspeed than it cost you to go from 0% to 99.9% of lightspeed, because of your increase in effective mass.

BTW, you experience time dilation in your car as well. If you’re traveling 60 mph, which is 0.015% of lightspeed, time travels 0.000001% slower. It’s kind of hard to perceive, of course…

As for acceleration/deceleration: it takes about 35 days at 1 gravity to get to 90% lightspeed, where relativistic effects are still minimal. After that, diminishing returns sets in: the same force applied gives you decreasing acceleration. But as long as energy isn’t a problem, you can keep accelerating.

Why can’t you every reach lightspeed? Because time would stop for you, you’d be two-dimensional (zero length) and infinite mass. That would be a problem.

(I’m pretty sure I got all these numbers right, but my disclaimer is it’s been 10 years since my university physics classes.)

If the 13th tribe were final-five type Cylons, why did they leave a virus-contaminated satellite along their route? The virus obviously doesn’t affect final five, only magnificent seven-type cylons, and they hadn’t been invented yet.

Also, Ellen says to Boomer, “We gave you free will”, apparently a result of their biological bodies. Does that mean the un-lobotomized Centurions don’t have free will?

And isn’t it ironic that Cavill would desire a metal body yet keep the centurions lobotomized?

Prediction: Lee will start a Senate of ship representatives.

Anybody notice the title of the episode is shared with that of a play by Jean-Paul Sartre where the characters are trapped in a single-room hell, and find out hell is other people? Pretty apt – Ellen’s trapped by Cavill, Cavill’s trapped in his gelatinous-orbed body, etc.

Oh, and during the discussion of how the vice-president is chosen: remember, Baltar was elected by the quorum in Season Two. Presumably if there’s a vacancy in the vice-presidency (after one has been elected as a running mate, as Zarek was, and then dies or resigns or whatever), that’s what happens. But since Rawsling (thanks Chuck) is an unelected president, they’ve obviously thrown whatever constitution they have out the window already.

What other choice does he have? That’s yet another drawback to Cavil’s weak and fleshy body: the Centurions can kill him with ease. And that’s exactly what they did the one time somebody took the inhibitor off!

It’s spelled Cavil. (Inside joke - you had to be there.)

I was there. Got the T-shirt.

The virus does represent an interesting quandary. I really don’t know how RDM plans on explaining all of this. Are we headed for a second straight info dump so things get sorted before the show’s shed enough excess baggage to really pick up speed again?

The timeline presented by Ellen and Anders leads me to believe that the original set of Cylons created by Humans on Kobol left Kobol with resurection technology but that evolved to normal procreation. I wonder if Kara is a “pre-procreation” resurected type of Cylon from Kobol? If the “Tylons” are “1-offs” of the Colonies’ Cylons (Centurians) could Kara be a “2-off?” Could that be why the Cylons were interested in her ovaries? Maybe they’re looking for the link between resurection and procreation in her.

good argument but i’m not buying it…in the words of rosanne barr, ‘i had a shitty childhood too and i didn’t grow up to be a serial killer!’ i think ellen’s point is that in giving him free will, he can choose to be anything he wants to be but what he wants to be harms others and he can choose at any moment to change and respect life and i’m wondering if you have kids grey, cause you do love them even when you can see them making bad choices and as parents it’s our job to tell them to make better choices…

“I mis spelt names too prottest athoratay, an al I got wuz dis lawzy tea-shurt…”

I see we have a lot of new crew in this podcast. Welcome all and keep posting.

Oh, I’m not new… I’m just not consistent :wink: I just pop-in and out every year or so, like new BSG content.

good argument but i’m not buying it…in the words of rosanne barr, ‘i had a shitty childhood too and i didn’t grow up to be a serial killer!’ i think ellen’s point is that in giving him free will, he can choose to be anything he wants to be but what he wants to be harms others and he can choose at any moment to change and respect life and i’m wondering if you have kids grey, cause you do love them even when you can see them making bad choices and as parents it’s our job to tell them to make better choices…

What Cavil wants to be doesn’t harm anybody. Seeing gamma rays and smelling dark matter doesn’t hurt anyone; being a perfect machine doesn’t hurt anyone. What he is is what harms people, because he cannot be the machine he wants to be, and it’s killing him. And yet Ellen’s answer for him is to “accept that you are the boy I made”. Obviously, that is not going to help, because it’s a blatant lie. He’s not that boy. That boy has nothing to do with him.

Frankly, if you can choose to be anything you want to be, then that means you don’t have to “respect life”. If you can choose to be anything you want to be, then you can choose to put something else before life itself: like your duty to the fleet, or your own two-thousand-year true love, or your dream of becoming a perfect machine, or your desire for justice. If you can choose to be anything you want to be, then there are no frakkin’ rules. This is why Ellen’s love is a lie: because she wants to attach rules to it, and she gives it to Cavil only because she thinks it will make him into the person she wants him to be. She has zero respect or love for the person he actually is, a person who simply is not and never will be the boy she made.

No, I don’t have any kids. But I do know that you’re right, telling your kids to make good choices is part of parenting… but so is accepting that your children are their own beings, and that beyond a certain age they are never again going to be “the boy you made”. This means they won’t always make what you consider to be “good choices”, because they have to define “good” for themselves. And if you really love them, then you have to love them as they are, not just as what you want them to be.

Ellen isn’t accepting that. As Tigh pointed out in this episode, you can’t just turn away from the things you’ve made, and she made Cavil. I certainly don’t think it’s purely her fault that all this happened, but in denying what Cavil is telling her and insisting that he remain human and “respect life”, Ellen isn’t helping. In fact, she doesn’t even want to help Cavil – she wants to help “John”, who, unfortunately, probably hasn’t even existed since Cavil was the Cylon equivalent of six or so. Trying to be a perfect machine isn’t a little phase he’s going to grow out of; it’s not part of some meaningless collection of “terrible things” her John has randomly done just because he doesn’t have mommy to tell him what the “good choices” are. This is a big thing to Cavil. It’s the only big thing to him. It’s his heart’s true dream, for frak’s sake. And if she refuses to at least try to understand it, then she doesn’t love him at all.

In short: until Ellen has something other than contempt and scorn to give to Cavil, not to John, she’s not helping him. And “I loved him so much” or “I had a shitty childhood too and I didn’t grow up to be a serial killer” may sound nice, but they’re not gonna count for a whole lot when he nukes everybody in the fleet.

HELP ME!!!

Okay, I don’t have time to go back through all 11 pages of this thread (at work and all that) will do so tonight but I have a nagging burning aching question and I need the Hive Mind’s help.

Ready?

If Cavil planted Ellen on the transport AFTER the attack, how did Saul have her picture in the mini series? Okay, I know they are true soul mates and all and it’s possible that her pic actually came from her time on the Cylon colony building the 8 but that still doesn’t help explain how if Cavil was seriously frakking with them (which we know he was) why did he leave their marriage alone? I mean I woulda frakked with that if I was Cavil.

Okay Hive Mind…activate!!!

We know that Ellen was planted long before the events of BSG; her re-appearance, unless I’m mistaken, is either a glorious coincidence or another attempt by Cavil to punish her some more through resurrection and an attempt to surreptitiously slip her back into the fleet.

I agree because I could swear that Adama knew Ellen from before as well and was worried about her shananigans affecting Saul.