So I was thinking that maby Ellen and Tigh are somewhat related to Adam and Eve. Especially with Ellen’s apple eating scene. TO me, I assumed that the apple symbolized what it is to be human- to have sin, but in this case it more referred to the fact that humans are not perfect. There is also the idea of the children of Eve sinned (this is where the bible first uses the word sin to describe Cain’s jealousy), and Ellen’s children, Cavil, obviously commits the gravest sins.
My question then is what is the Garden of Eden. With out one, most of the Adam/Eve story is meaningless because they never turned away from perfection/God. I honestly can not think what place would be Eden. Possibly Erf, but they made their children on Erf and thus it cant be Eden.
Maby Eden isnt important, but RDMs comment in his cast that the apple way symbolic sparked this thought.
Also who else missees Helo/Athena? I know GR misses Athena;)
I’ll be in my bunk…
I think Kobol was Eden in this story…I mean look at how pretty it was!! If I were them I would have stayed there…
I’m a bit of an amateur theologian, so I’ll take a shot.
In Genesis, everything that God “spoke” into Creation was “Good”, including Man and Woman. God approved of them as they were. So far as God was concerned, they needed no improvement.
The Serpent introduced Eve to shame by suggesting that she was less than she “could” be. He implied that God was holding them back by commanding them not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He told her if she would eat it, she would become a god, and be able to decide what was good and evil for herself.
In other words, the Serpent said, “God didn’t make you as well as he could have. He’s holding you back on purpose. Eat the Fruit and you will become His Equal.”
Shame is what drives many people to gross immorality. A young boy mercilessly tortured by his parents becomes ashamed of his body, his powerlessness, his whole existence. He grows into an imbittered man who cannot love, who trusts no one, who’s envious of everyone… taking what he wants via rape, theft, murder… as Queen Galadriel proclaimed to Frodo during her moment of temptation, “Instead of a Dark Lord, you will have a Queen! As terrible as the dawn… All shall love me and dispair!”
This is Cavil. His dreams were haunted by a childhood bully, which induces shame. He reprograms himself to never dream again… something Psychiatrists would call, “denial”. He is ashamed of his humanoid form… ashamed that he has limitations… ashamed that his progenitors, the centurians, were slaves… ashamed that the centurians needed outside help from the humanoid Erf Cylons…
And all this deep-seated shame has led him to delusions of grandeur. He wishes he were a machine God that could see all, hear all, know all, do everything… and be all places at once. He “wills” himself to be the “Great Decider”, the pontiff of the Universe… the Being that Knows what is Good and what is Evil for Himself, and everyone else.
He can’t believe in God because he presumes that he alone deserves to be god… after all, he’s been through so much pain and suffering, right?
Back to Genesis. The Serpent implies that Eve wasn’t as great as she could be. She eats the fruit. Adam eats the fruit. They experience shame, “their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked”. Naked is a metaphor for “lacking something”. In their eyes, God must have missed something… their bodies weren’t perfect… they needed to hide their bodies… so no one could make fun of their lack and laugh at them like the Serpent had…
They hid in the forest and covered their bodies with leaves.
God walks in and asks, “what have you done?”
Adam replies, “It’s not my fault! The woman YOU made for me, SHE gave me the fruit and I ate it”. In other words, Adam blames God for making the woman and then blames the woman for giving him the apple.
God asks Eve, “Is this true?”
Eve says, “It’s not my fault! The serpent seduced me!”
No one takes responsibility. No one says, “I’m sorry”. Instead of feeling genuine remorse for their crime, like criminals - they simply regret getting caught.
In both the Old (Jewish) and New (Christian) Testaments, no one can be forgiven until they are truly sorry for what they’ve done, changed their way of life, and tried their best to make amends. It is a transaction between two parties… not a “free gift” as many airy-fairy Christians make it out to be today.
Offender: “I hurt you. I’m sorry. I won’t do it again. How can I make it up to you?”
Victim: “I believe you. I can see you’ve changed. Just make sure it doesn’t happen again. I forgive you.”
Adam, Eve, and the Serpent did not apologize. They blamed one another… and God. If their part of the forgiveness bargain was unfulfilled, God couldn’t fulfill his part of the forgiveness bargain.
My question then is what is the Garden of Eden. With out one, most of the Adam/Eve story is meaningless because they never turned away from perfection/God. I honestly can not think what place would be Eden. Possibly Erf, but they made their children on Erf and thus it cant be Eden.
The Bible never states that Adam and Eve were perfect. The only “perfect” is God. All we know for sure is that God made them the way they were for a reason… and He loved what He had Created. He didn’t love them for being perfect, he loved them because he made them. Like Ellen says to Cavil, “I love you because I made you.” (note; Ellen can love John even after hearing about all his atrocities… but in no way has she so much as hinted that she’s forgiven him. He’s not sorry, and he’s not forgiven, but she still loves him).
There was nothing wrong with Eve until the Serpent convinced her otherwise.
Where there is neither repentance nor forgiveness there is only blame, shame, and every crime ever committed by sentient creatures - like rape, theft, murder, and genocide - on other sentient creatures to make up for what they believe they lack. Outside of Eden, one being puts down another to elevate his or her own status. Outside of Eden, brothers kill each other over trifles.
Thus, the Garden of Eden is a place where people are accepted for who they are and the way God made them. In the Garden, people admit their mistakes, change their ways, make amends, and the people they wronged forgive them. In this place, every person proclaims the beauty of another, the creativity of another, the strengths of another, and their love and appreciation of one another.
Shame cannot reside in the Garden of Eden… because “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you.”
Hope this helps.
Hack and Slash nailed it, especially regarding the purpose of the Garden. Could not have said it better myself. There are definitely many religious/mythological undertones in BSG, and Adam/Eve is certainly one of them, but I wouldn’t take it too seriously; it’s jut another ingredient in the Theological Stew the show is boiling in.
It was called the Apple of Knowledge. Or in this case, apparently to defy Cavil’s doctrine is to have eaten from the apple. I’m not comparing Cavil to God mind you, but like God Cavil vengeful and wrathful and won’t be happy til he’s made back into a piece of steel.
What is referenced as an apple of knowledge? The Bible does not mention a specific fruit and apples were unknown to the region at the time.
Occasionally, it strikes me as, potentially, more of a “Paradise Lost” scenario. The one (good) God (who’s not truly a god) is out there (Ellen?) and sooner or later he/she is going to have to deal with vengeful, evil Lucifer like creature (aka - the jealous god, aka the god who wished to be placed above all others - btw who does that sound like from Milton’s work?, aka “Satan”, aka Cavil in this cycle).
Which makes it a meta-cycle that would have been going since the beginning of time, back to Genesis as referenced in Western theology, and even into this fictional future. I didn’t even think of tying it to our current world and its tales and stories from thousands of years ago.
My mind is a little more blown today than yesterday.
“I endeavour to give pleasure, sir.” Jeeves to Bertie Wooster on countless occasions in the P.G. Wodehouse stories.
Wasn’t there a “Lucifer” in the original series? What what it? And could it have something to do with the Centurian god? Since Cavil/John helped to make the other skin-jobs, could he be seen as a Lucifer in the classical mythology sense that the was the beloved fallen angel who rebels against his creator? He’s then both Adam and Serpent in one.
There sure was. I’m sure some technologically adept reader will post a photo of the little guy.
Cavil cannot be “made back into a piece of steel”… he never was a piece of steel. He was created as he presently is. Cavil blaming Ellen for making him humanoid rather than super-mecha-godzilla is like a porcupine blaming God for giving him quills rather than wings. Gods make what they make. And mortals inevitably screw up when they try to imrpove on God’s design.
Your idea about the apple is compelling… But God is pissed because men and women keep taking what’s not theirs and trampling each other in the process. We’re not in Heaven because Heaven’s a civilized place. There’s no room in Heaven for a race of criminals. And none of us get back into heaven until we reform… or burn.
Biblically, the Serpent is the one with no legs… who can only feel good about himself by dragging others down to his level. Satan is the one who dreams of toppling the reign of Heaven and taking the throne of god for himself. Satan is the one with huge self-esteem issues. Cavil offered the apple, Eight was simply a minion carrying it.
Cavil is a satanic character and is not remotely a symbol of God.
The apple has become the “symbol” of hidden deception, seduction, knowledge, and revolution - among other things. In some old artwork, you may see a pomegranate. The fruit doesn’t matter… the meaning does.
Adam and Eve could eat anything they wanted in that garden. The only limit God put on them was to not eat of one tree. His tree…
We had it all.
Lucifer was a scheming Cylon in the original series. He was voice by Jonathan Harris, I believe.
The garden of eden could be Kobol…or it could be the room with that fireplace and Grace Park up there.
I, too, will be in my bunk…
Biblically, the Serpent is the one with no legs… who can only feel good about himself by dragging others down to his level. Satan is the one who dreams of toppling the reign of Heaven and taking the throne of god for himself. Satan is the one with huge self-esteem issues. Cavil offered the apple, Eight was simply a minion carrying it.
Cavil is a satanic character and is not remotely a symbol of God.
Interesting point. I don’t think Cavil is a symbol of God either. ONe point, though: in Jewish tradition the serpent in the garden story is NOT Satan but, simply, The Serpent. Satan doesn’t come into the TANAKH until much later (the book of Job, I think).
I think you’re reading too much religion into this. Of course it’s fun to do that, but as you know the writers like to lead us one way and then throw us a big “PSYCHE!”.
If Cavil doesn’t like his human body it’s absurd science fiction that he can’t fix that. They can create flesh bodies, and mix machine with flesh (hybrids) so it follows they can at least put Cavil’s brain in a centurion-like metal body. Or better yet, if his consciousness can be stored with resurrection tech it should also be able to be run inside it. Cavil could be an entire baseship if he chose! And don’t get me started on the fact they haven’t reverse-engineered resurrection technology itself by now. Sometimes these writers get kinda…what’s the word…“Trek” on us and I just have to sigh.
Oh very good point. You’re right, the word “Satan” wasn’t used till later. I had forgotten that. I wonder how many Christians actually realize that?
True - but I still think the story line at this point has some resemblence to Milton’s “Paradise Lost”. So does the Kobol part of the saga.
“And the LORD God said unto the serpent… And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” (GEN 3:15)
The Serpent is Adam’s enemy - forever. He tempted them to eat the forbidden fruit…
…and temped David to number Israel.
“And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.” (I CHRON 21:1)
… and did all that nasty stuff to Job… etc, etc…
The Serpent/Satan may be a real entity or a symbol of something else… but they are related in that they are the mortal enemies of Adam (us)… unless we’re cylons…
One more thing… how are we NOT supposed to interpret BSG without relating some (not all) of it to Christianity… and particularily, Judaism? ADAMa, Noah’s Ark, Twelve Tribes, Exodus, time in the wilderness, Promised Land, One True God, miracles… I mean, the prophecy even states that the “dying leader” won’t live to enter the promised land… just like Moses was destined to die before the Israelites conquered Canaan.
Even the cylons/human hybrids (either Hera or others): “…the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose… There were giants (Hebrew; Nephilim) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.” (GEN 6:2-4)
Just think of Hercules, half-man, half-god (or something else).
It’s “Bible in Space”. They’re using tried, tested, and true methods of storytelling and myth… and maybe truths that pluck some chords in our hearts… somehow, we know this story’s true…
But, this isn’t original material.
Like Jarathen said, BSG is something of a religious stew. RDM and Co. seem to like throwing a lot of spiritual spaghetti against the wall and seeing what sticks. This means that some things can be symbols for or references to multiple ideas from various traditions and mythologies. It’s quite fun, but I don’t think you can ever pin the story down with any one spiritual concept or viewpoint. BSG less often says, “This is so,” than it asks, “What is so?”
That said, Hack&Slash – par excellent eloquence (that probably doesn’t really mean anything, but you get the jist)! Cavil can very easily be seen as Lucifer and/or Adam, since both were unhappy with how they were made and wanted to be more. Sean pointed out in this week’s 'cast that even if Cavil’s wishes were granted, that still wouldn’t have made him happy. He could be swimming with the supernova and riding on comets, but he’d never shake his psychoses. He’d still be angry at everyone who’d hurt him and greedy for more power. He’d swallow the whole universe and kill everyone who slighted him if he could and still never be satisfied.
Ellen is inviting John to come down to Earth–as it were–accept himself as the creature he is, and just love those around him. But he’s become bitter, vengeful, and sadistic, and doesn’t want to hear it. A villain like Cavil is scary because he reflects the darkest, wrongest* parts of ourselves, the parts that come up in our worst moods and angriest thoughts. At least, he does for me. Perhaps I need therapy. :rolleyes: Or just forgiveness.
*I know it’s not a word, but it sounded nice here.
Cavil also can be seen as Cain - like, given what he did to his brother, Daniel - as others have mentioned. (I sense an Old Testament trend with this guy.)
And then there’s Norse mythology - starting with the loss of the right eye by Tigh, and all the related Odin/Wotan themes, including the fall of the gods and the rise of humans.
Not to mention that the reimagined series was inspired by 9/11 and whatever tie in that might have with Islam.