Deep Space Nine discussion

The background of the actor should be unimportant. William Shatner is jewish, and nobody thinks twice about him doneing the Nazi uniform in TOS, nor Spock makeing a joke that Kirk “makes a convinceing nazi” ( also a jewish actor) cause it’s not important. As a character, kirk takes the joke light hearted as well.

Dr. Julian Bashir is of Indian decent. For the purposes of this discusion, the actor being British/Sudenese is not relevent. What IS relevent is that he and OBrien portray British Officers during their holodeck reenactment of the blitz because it’s fun. Both characters come from cultures where their people were being treated a LOT worse by the British ( and particurly British officers) than the few blacks in Vegas for 400+ years. BUT Because it’s trek and EVERYONE is suposed to be over all the cultural and racial problems of the real world… neither think anything about playing a scenerio. The characters aren’t saying “I’m not going to pretend to be a valient British Officer and also pretend that everything was hunky dory for my people during this time” Becuase that’s not what Trek humans do. If anything EVERY example in Trek history EXCEPT this one incedence with Sisko says that people are over all this stuff.

My point that I don’t think anyone is getting is this. It’s not how would WE feel if we were Sisko that matters. It’s how does a fictional character raised in the Trek universe feel. Every precedense established before this inncident has said that humans are completely over ALL guilt,sensitivity,shame, concern,interest, and of out cultural and racial differences, injustices, and problems of the past. Humans have gotten over it. Abraham Lincoln calls Uhura a “nigress” on the bridge of the Enterprise and Kirk and her explain that they are over all that, she looks suprised that he even thought that she would be mad… like she’s never heard of being mad over that kinda thing. That’s what Trek is all about. Getting along and being over it.

I am not saying if 20th century ME were transported to the 1701-D and participated in a holodeck of the US civil war, that I wouldn’t want to be on the side of the Confederate raiders. (I was raised here and union soldiers did burn my ancestors home to the ground, and my ancestors weren’t soldiers in the war… but was a Doctor and a teacher). I have reasons why I wouldn’t want to portray a union soldier ( i probly would thou- I am not too hung up on anchient history) . But If I was raised in 24th century Tennesee, and someone wanted me to be in a hollodeck and up portray Union soldiers marching up Misionaty Ridge, I would think that as a character I would jump right in and not think about it… caus ein TREK everyone is over the past.

Sisko’s argument is about as stupid ( in the 24th century trek universe) as a women not wanting to be in a holodeck representation of the old west because women couldn’t vote, or Dr crusher not wanting to play in Picard’s detective program because women were denied abortion rights at that time.

I understand Avery Brooks not likeing it ( althou it’s pretty imature considering the lesson of trek is get over it) but I don’t understand him not complying with the spirit of trek. and the writers and producers should have acted acordingly. Because Sisko set the ONLY precedence in trek where Humans are not 100% over the racial and cultural injustices of their past ( out present).

I agree with you that the actor’s back ground doesn’t have to matter. A Chinese guy can play a Japanese guy. But only when the history isn’t being misrepresented. The actor’s comment about the rewrite really doesn’t matter either. In the end it’s only about whether or not the plot was out of Sisko’s character.

In all the Star Trek cases you mentioned, things were not misrepresented. Kirk in “Patterns of Force” wasn’t playing a real NAZI from WW2. The Enterprise was visiting a planet who acted like NAZIs.

For Lincoln to call Uhura a nigress is historically correct. That was the terminology back in those days. Negro or the “n word” were simply the Latin word for black, hence there’s Niger River, and the nation of Nigeria. Even if Lincoln used it, as long as it is with respect, it isn’t derogatory.

For the humans of Star Trek universe in the 24th century racism is a thing of the past. And they do not get bothered by it when it is represented in the historical context. but those with more knowledge towards history can always find it inappropriate when things are misrepresented. It’s one thing if you don’t know anything about that historical period, but if you do know that period, there is no need to participate in willful ignorance.

Everyone has their special interests in the Star Trek Universe. Picard loves archeology. Tom Paris loves 20th century. Sisko loves baseball, the history of baseball, and also cultures and history. There’s a reason why Sisko is best friend with Curzon. Curzon is also a man who loves to learn about culture and history.

I don’t find it at all out of character for Sisko to have an issue with the misrepresentation of Las Vegas in the 1950s. It is the same era as Willy Mays of the baseball card his son got him. It isn’t surprising if Sisko knows more about the era and the situation of his people back in those hay days of baseball. Besides, why does everyone’s reaction on this subject have to be the same, just because they are from the 24th century?

And after Casidy talked to him, he’s just like another Star Trek universe person and went to have fun playing a role in the holosuite. It seemed ok of me, even if it was requested by the actor.

I loved Ezri. I was hugely disappointed in Terry Farrell for leaving the show one year before it ended, just so she could co-star in a sitcom with Ted Danson. I liked the twist they had for Ezri in that she was unprepared for her joining. In just one season, we watched her learn to adjust to a life-changing situation she’d never asked for and eventually find strength in it. I felt she blended in with the rest of the cast quite well, and she and Alexander Siddig were damn cute together.
(I’ve never heard the Pillar-affair rumor. Sounds specious.)

To me, the Ezri thing was a prime example of how DS9 took its weaknesses and turned them into strengths. Avery Brooks had a commanding presence as Sisko, but he was largely underwritten and underwhelming until they promoted him and let him shave his head in the fourth season. Adding Worf to the show smacked of nothing but a publicity stunt, but when they took the edgy, moody, kick-ass parts of the character that never quite had a chance to shine in TNG and let them bloom on DS9, he fit right in. Without a ship to fly around, they could have lost the “boldly go” of Star Trek, but with a station full of diverse, screwed-up, and colorful characters, there was a deep pool of stories to explore right on their doorstep every week.

The other weaknesses Rooster mentioned I agree with. I even think the war arc went on too long, as exciting and epic as it was. If you read the “Eighth Season” series of novels, which ends in the novel Unity, I think the story reaches a much more satisfying end.

Another great DS9 moment!

When Jem Haddar says ( about the captured Worf fighting in the Jem Hadar prison asteroid’s combat circle).

paraphrased: “I can kill him. but I can’t defeat him.”

That whole episode is great. It has all of what I love. Grand story arc plot, Garek and Tain’s story, Worf in the arena, Martok as a disgraced general.

Plus… I just love the Jem Haddar!

Anytime we get to see them and their culture I am down with it!

Ok, I am now going to throw the gauntlet out there:

I will commit to watching the entirety of DS9. I will document my process or watching which in no way will compete or reach the brilliance of Lucky’s first watch of BSG TOS…mine will simply document my progress so you know I am holding up my end of the bargain. I will be respectful of the content and alway provide my feedback in a positive manner.

What do you have to do? Your mission if you choose to accept it: Watch Enterprise in the same fashion.

Solai, once I’m ABD, I’ll watch both :slight_smile:

i agree to do that as well. I watched season 1 religiously. two and three, well I was in a war ( but I caught most of the episodes going and comeing out of order… so I could use a rewatch to do it justice) and season 4 which I loved A lOT! deal!

I liked Sisko before, but when he became more like “Hawk”, I loved him. I really liked Spencer for Hire, primarily because of Hawk’s very cool bad-ass presence.

Ok Solai, I’ll watch both.
First DS9 (which I love) and then Enterprise (which I will give an honest try).
I look forward to reading about your process.

I look forward to reading yours! Very generous to watch both. If you are pressed for time you can always focus on the one you are least familiar with. :smiley:

I just rewatched In the Pale Moonlight. So very very good.

And a very different feel than TOS.

Had never seen much, if any, of DS9 until my girlfriend, who has seen all of it and owns the series, introduced it to me. We started watching it on Sept. 29, and we’re almost done with Season Four (at this rate, it shouldn’t take long to finish). The last episode we saw was “Shattered Mirror” (4.20). Overall, it’s quite an excellent show with some great allegories, dark themes and exciting stuff. So far, I think Season Four is my favorite season, because even its weaker episodes are still good. My favorite episodes so far are “Necessary Evil” (2.08) and “The Visitor” (4.03).

I think my favorite character is Odo.

Anyway, not really reading this thread very much yet, because I’m afraid of spoilers, but thought I’d drop by as a newbie to DS9.

LOVED this series…by far my favorite…Enjoy and welcome to the forum!

you have an awesome girlfriend.

season 4 is the season that DS9 really found the winning combination. Before they were trying things that just didn’t fit in with rest of the show.

gonna have to respectfully disagree…think it got even better as time went on…

I’m always interested in hearing the perspective of people watching the series for the first time. Which moments stand out? Who are their favorite characters? Feel free to share any and all your thots.

It’s difficult to pull out my favorite moments from the show, since my last re-watch was several years ago. What I remember most about DS9 is the feeling that Star Trek “grew up” a lot with this series. The story arcs are longer (especially the war), the plots are more complex, and the characters are much more believable. It is the kind of TV show that rewards careful and thoughtful viewers more than other Star Trek shows. We knew the character Nog from season 1, and were engaged with what happened to him in the war. We got to see Jake grow up. Bajor was fleshed out enough to seem real. The Jem’Hadar, i.e., Klingons-because-the-real-Klingons-are-our-friends-now, were awesome. I loved watching the Odyssey with its smug Picard-look-alike captain blow up.

At the time there was much criticism that the show was less exciting and too cerebral for television. I thought there were some pretty goofy plot holes. Why did the founder chick look like Odo? Can anyone watch Alaimo chew up the scenery in season 7 - especially with his skeevy girlfriend - without cringing? But as a whole it remains my favorite Trek series.

as a counter:

Move Along Home
If Wishes Were Horses
Rivals
Distant Voices

These few I often skip when I am rewatching the first couple of seasons. there are very few episodes that i’d want to skip after season 4. with the exception of The Muse.

Agreed - a majority of post S4 stuff is really very good, in my opinion

i still have nightmares about move along home… if that’s someone’s first DS9 episode, I wouldn’t be surprised if they never watched another one…

but season one i saw how this show can be great with the pilot, Duet and more. Season 2 with The Circle and the The Maquis i saw how this show is relevant to the time we live in (even though it was pre-911). Season 3 with Improbable Cause, The Die is Cast, Explorers, Civil Defense, Second Skin, Defiant, I saw how this show getting in groove. From season 4 on it was almost all brilliance.