Deep Space Nine discussion

Television, Movies Games and Books Star Trek
#21

Excellent thread dude–I miss this show…I’m in the LOVE DS9 camp as well adn teh B5 camp - both were really strong serials.

Though I still really like Duet and the last 3 seasons overall…I still have a soft spot for the shows premiere. Siskos realization of “I exist here…” is powerful and emotional to watch. I knew then this was going to be a damn good show.

The other thing I loved about DS9 is that just about every character on that show (with the notable exception of Jake IMO), did nearly a complete 180 from where they were in the premiere. Exceptional character development. And when Sisko went all Hawk from Spencer for Hire was SWEET!! (aka, goatee and shaved his head)

Anyone been reading the follow up novels?

#22

I hear ya, roosterpfunk69. I never got into the debate. I took each show on its own, and with its own strenghts. B5 is a different story, not better or worse just different from DS9 or Star Trek for that matter. At the time when it aired, it was refreshing when all the sci-fi on TV was Star Trek.

The acting, sets, etc may have not been high budget like Trek but they did what they could with what they had. I know. I know. Yet another excuse, sorrys.

I really enjoyed the series and I don’t feel cheated or my time wasted. The characters are endearing (bad acting or not) and the plots (arcs) are intriguing.

In recent years after seeing some Red Dwarf I’ve thot of B5 as a morph between Red Dwarf and Star Trek. Deep discussion and political intrigue with cardboard sets and quirky humour.

#23

I get really depressed about DS9 when I watch the finale. I am afraid that the success of the new Trek movie will convince paramount that new is better… and we’ll never know what happens to the gang. I am sure somone will write a few non cannon novels… but an actual series or movie, i think not. The new Trek movie has made sure that won’t happen. ( I am excited about the new trek thou).

I would like to see what happens to my fvorite characters.

#24

It has been said many a-time, but how awesome would it be if Virtuality stumbles and RDM moves on to create a new Star Trek series set after Voyager?

#25

reply to roosterpfunk69’s long post about B5.

Well, I wouldn’t go as far as saying 3 out of 4 episodes of Babylon 5 were a waste of time (only 25/100 episodes were good), but I get what you are saying.

That’s why I said B5 had big archs that are hard to get through in rewatch. I think the story wasn’t written with the episodic TV format in mind. So it takes a couple of episodes for a lot of the stories to have something happen or revealed. It was fine when it aired, but since the story telling was done in such a straight forward fashion, you don’t really get a lot of new ideas on rewatch. It’s hard on rewatch to get through the setup episodes since you already know the outcome.

I agree that Ivanova was pretty flat in delivering a lot of the lines. Though I think Garabaldi was pretty good. I don’t think that was only because I liked his character. After Bester toyed with him, the actor did some great jobs showing how conflicted Garabaldi is.

This is a DS9 thread after all. What I really want to say is DS9 is a great series. And if you enjoyed any part of the Trek Universe, and enjoyed BSG, you should have no trouble enjoying DS9. It had great family stories, friendships that felt real, dove deep in discussing race, terrorism, religion, oppresion, freedom fighting, taboos of the society and they were all done very thoughtfully with story tellers such as RDM and Ira Behr.

I loved B5 first, and learned to love DS9 even more. Though as much as I love Deep Space 9, it had its share of waste of time episodes, especially in the first 2 seasons, though season 1 and 2 had some of the greatest gems in the series. If you haven’t watched DS9, you really should give it a try.

#26

Jake actually thought about joining Star Fleet and not let his dad down for a bit. He also went from a scared boy to holding his own and sticking up for what he believed in. And he became quiet a manipulative person even for a ferengi… I’d say he changed a bit…

The last scene of DS9 echoed the beginning of DS9 and I really feel for Jake. Especially when I know how much he loved his father.

#27

oh I know… jake lost both his parents in a 10 year period.

Remember that episode where jak eis the older writer and wants to save his dad? Really a much more sad episode when you know the end. That’s the old man Jake will be.

#28

yes, that’s DS9 Season 4x3 “The Visitor”. And wow, you are right, after the finale, I know Jake would never give up hope of bringing his father back.

#29

I’m sorry I missed this discussion back when it started. I’ll see if I can’t find time this week to lay out a true description of how I feel about DS9 (love it, if I’m voting). But I had to mention this episode…

When Audra and I were watching DS9 in order, saving for the next DVD set so we could buy it before we ran out of episodes, we happened to hit this episode literally months after my father died. This episode absolutely tore me up, because I felt the same way: I’d rip my life to shreds if I could bring him back. Hell, I still feel that way.

I’ll admit that I’ve seen this episode exactly twice; I just haven’t been able to bring myself to watch it, though it’s easily one of my top-ranked episodes in the series. Why? It’s just too real. That said, it really did help a little bit watching Jake try to come to grips with everything.

As Ron Moore would say, the episode’s outcome is “truthful.” The truth about losing a parent is that a) it’s final, b) there’s not a damn thing you can do about it ever, and worse yet c) it’s inevitable. It’s like growing old: the alternative sucks on an entirely more massive level.

Anyway, just thot I’d share that. I’ll add some more – like another rave for “In The Pale Moonlight,” watching Worf finally finish the job and send Gowron to Gre’thor (DS9: “Tacking Into The Wind”) to join that dirtbag Duras (TNG: “Reunion”), and the inimitable “House of Quark.” :slight_smile:

#30

Chuck, thanks for sharing your “The Visitor” experience. DS9 has a couple of these very truthful episodes. And that is why I feel so strongly about DS9. Because some of them are difficult to rewatch because it is good.

And DS9 helped make the Klingon a much deeper and richer people. At times it almost felt like Klingon are a new species that they ran into and observed their customs on an TNG episode. Like when Worf and Jadzia got married. It gave insights to how the woman really commands the house and how Klingon family values are.

#31

You guys bring up very good points about Jake that I hadn’t considered.

A few thing happen in the subsequent books (which I consider canon…but some may not) that really continue the story nicely.

And RDM…doing a ST series…post DS9/Nemesis/Voyage…I am TOTALLY in.

#32

I will tell you guys something that I hate to admit. And would only admit it so fellow ds9 lovers. I will preface this with saying that I love ds9 more than BSG and Magnum PI. ( yep my top three shows of all time). There are a few things in DS9 that jumped the Shark for me in the final seasons.

  1. Kira reciprocateing Odo’s love and them haveing a relationship. I think it worked with odo haveing feelings for her. I liked that he was a dear friend in her eyes and she was sensitive to his feelings… but in love with Bajoran men in power. I liked that very human drama being played out between these two aliens. But the to characters haveing a romance didn’t work for me at all. Not visualy ( eck!- rene was like 60 to Nana’s 33), Not fom a character point of view ( my take on Kira), and there was little to no chemistry between the actors. I think they did a ermarkable job of acting… they just didn’t look right… I wasn’t feeling it. I wanted Odo to be happy… but it just seemed silly.

  2. Bashir is a super man! Watch the earlier eppisodes… there are a few occasions where he deffinitly wasn’t a superman until the moment the writers sat down to write that episode. Also it was poor writeing and acting every time that they would casualy mention it for those new viewers.

  3. Rom is the new Nagus! Really … the super coniveing Ferengi let this go down. That is too forrest Gump for me. Really! Really! Oh… this show completely forgot that the Ferengi were ruthless! ( also they forgot that they had the Marauder Warships that were a match for the Galaxy Class vessel. The nagus get’s captured because he uses’s a shuttle)

  4. “little Dax” When they added her… they spent too much time selling her to us. I liked her and all… but they knew it was the final season… focus more on the guys that had been there for a few years. There was always a rummor that Da Boar she had an affair with Micheal Pillar… this seson doesn’t do much to squash that rumor. I also thought that is was too soon to bring in another Dax. It took away from Jadzia’s death.

  5. Sisko doesn’t want to help the holagram because it represents a time when black people were oppressed. I asked Avery Brooks about this at a convention and he said that was how HE had actualy felt when they first introduced Vic. He actually says to Casidy “our people”. It really disapointed me. I was raised in the south, and was a racist little kid ( like almost everyone in my southern all-white community). Star Trek ( and Prince and the Revolution) were key in my early development to opening my mind to being done with all that. I thought that Star Trek was all about being over all that racial bigotry stuff. Sisko set a precidence, it’s just a place where humans aren’t racist, but it’s not a place where humans get over it… 400 years later ( I know somone is going to bring up his dream episode as Benny [one of my favorites by the way] as Sisko’s excuse. But, that’s no excuse, he is a logical person and was raised in the 24th century Earth. No excuse for that crap. That was just the actor makeing a point, and in a way soiling in a few sentences what I thought was a pretty good future.

  6. This is a side biotch… but the writers COMPLETLY forgeting that the Vorta have telekinetic powers. The first Vorta we see sure does… then the rest do not. ( Iggy Pop was my favorite Vorta ever )

#33

I actually liked the Kira Oda finally working out thing. I know the actors themselves hated it. But this is my take. If they planned for Odo to return to the goo bath, then they need for Oda and Kira to find true love in each other. Because the last thing you want is for the viewers to think Odo is going to the goo bath because Kira didn’t return his feelings. It can’t be any part of the reason for Odo going back, because that would be little Odo’s character and his motives.

By having Odo and Kira finally work out, and Odo still decided to return, he is making a sacrifice for the greater good, and that way Odo is still Odo and not some sad smuck who went in hiding.

I can see the Bashir the super man is stretching it a little. Though “Dr. Bashir I presume” was an incredibly interesting and fun episode, you can tell this fact was just made up and it created some plot holes. That being sad, you don’t actually see a lot of Dr. being superman. You see he think or calculates really fast, but it certainly didn’t help him on solving Section 31’s virus. Nor did his genetic enhancement helped too much with his baseball skill. He may have faster thinking, better hand eye, and better strength, but he still needs to practice to get good at things. And I think that’s reasonable.

Rom the Nagus is just for fun. Rom is a character that changed a lot from the first season. Some of the changes he went through is a bit more ridiculous than him being Nagus. Especially when his mom has been brain washing the old Nagus by his pillow.

The Sisko thing had a point. And I can totally understand why he didn’t like the historic inaccuracy. If they had a holo program about Nazi Germany and they were portrayed as throwing huge October fest parties with the Jewish as their honored guests in the camps, I don’t care if 400 years have past, people of Jewish descents probably would have an issue with that program. Then put yourself in Sisko’s shoes and imagine his feeling about looking at the 50s/60s and pretending it was all fun and games. well, it wasn’t.

and I wonder about the Vorta too… even Weyoun’s behavior changed a lot with his first appearance to the war time.

#34

The Odo thing: There doesn’t have to be a happy ending. That’s why it’s ds9 not TNG. They did it much better with the EMH in voyager. Sure he liked 7… but he didn’t get to have her. Period, why? Cause that would be stupid… even if we like the characters and want them to be happy… it still doesn’t make it a good story.

as for the siko part: well the Nazi point is an EXTREME stretch. You are talking about a depiction of an actual camp, or octoberfest drawing attention to Jews as guests. In Quarks holosuite, they wern’t running a holodepiction of a kkk meeting , or depicting slavery. it was just a night club in Vegas. One would have to be very knowledgeable of their races’s history and hung up on it to associate this holosuite with that stuff. ( very un trek like)

A more acurate depiction would be an octoberfest hologram that was in the 30-40’s ish with no mention of jews, the war, or anything political. It was just a beer hall with danceing and sausages. And Someone Jewish saying " I can’t play along with this because I hold resentment to this culture ( very non-trek like) because I know that some people of this culture around 400 years ago ( and I am supposed to be over all this racial stuff, because its’s star trek) during this time periiod, did horrible things to my ancestor’s friends and family. That yould be crazy and un trek like.

A Star Trek depiction would be more of an Octoberfest with Jews, gypsies, Bolians, and a Horta eating Knockwurst, drinking pilsner and wearing leiterhosen ( i know I am nowhere near right on that spelling) .

When Abraham Lincoln showed up on the Enterprise, Uhara didn’t jump up and say “thank you for freeing my people”. When he called her " a charming nigress" and asked if she was offended she was like “no, in this century [paraphraseing] we’ve learne dto not be afraid of words”

Trek is about Earth and the Klingon’s getting along and not hateing each other over the things that happened during the Kirk era. Sisko hateing a holosuit ( that I argue that he had to think really really hard to draw a conection to 400 year old racism ) that depicts a time period over 400 years earlier where people of his race ( somehting that is supposed to be almost forgotten about in Trek)is the most un-trek like thing ever.

They weren’t depicting anything racist at Vics, which was Avery brook’s point when I asked him. They were playing a Star Trek universe depiction of a time period where things weren’t all hunky dory for “his people”. A “fantasy version” if you will. A “could have been” I like to think. He had mentioned that ,as an actor, he was realy showing that 50-60’s Vegas as a racist place and it shouldn’t be fantised about ( talking about not getting over it- duh… we already know this). He demanded that this be reflected in his character’s reaction to Vic’s.) I have to argue considering that I lived in Tennesse and Alabama, Vegas didn’t have anything on our area of the country. There weren’t segreagated busses and police with firehoses, or bombed churches happening to people in vegas back then. Any Trek person would not have acted like avery brooks. It would have been a no brainer. Uhurah wasn’t scared to got to 1986 earth. She wasn’t thinking about that in st4. It wasn’t even disccussed.

The rom thing was funny, but that doesn’t make it good.

#35

I wasn’t talking about having happy endings. In fact the way Odo had to leave Kira to save his people was a sad ending, not at all happy. The point I was making was that Odo is a character with very strong integrity. He had his own beliefs and it’s those ideals that kept him from returning to his people.

Such a character would be ruined if there’s any hint of him returning to his people because he wants to run away from Kira not returning his feelings. By having Odo and Kira realizing they were meant for each other, which is something Odo always longed for, only to give that up for a higher cause speaks volume about the core integrity of Odo, which is what his character is all about. By not having them together, when fans wonder why he chose to go back, Kira not returning his feelings will always be thrown around, and that’s not what Odo’s character is about.

Same can be said about my analogy. Why would a Trill or Klingon care about if the German program was accurate? Most people don’t even know about the sufferings on this planet now. For example, what is going on in Sri Lanka? Or what’s the fuss about in Thailand? But to the people who know the program is painting a rosy picture of a bad situation, it isn’t surprising they have a hard time enjoying themselves.

“One would have to be very knowledgeable of their races’s history and hung up”, yes, and Sisko is very knowledgeable about his race’s history. So I think it is pretty normal for him to be hung up about the inaccuracy of the Vegas program.

I don’t really see your point of “Any Trek person would not have acted like avery brooks.” or that “400 years so people will have forgotten”. The whole point of progress is that people learned from their mistakes. If it is forgotten then nothing was gained.

that’s because in 1986 black people in San Francisco could have a lower quality of living compares to the white SF population, but in general people don’t openly display discrimination.

In 1950s or 1960s black people are not welcomed in casinos. The following excerpt is from the Las Vegas Moulin Rouge Hotel wikipedia page

A veritable “A” list of 50s- and 60s-era performers regularly showed to party until dawn. Great black singers and musicians such as Sammy Davis Jr., Nat King Cole, Pearl Bailey, and Louis Armstrong would perform often. These artists were banned from gambling or staying at the hotels on the strip.

But hey, what do I know, I didn’t grow up in the US.

#36

my point is Sisko careing about it is aginst the spirit of Trek. Trek has stated in countless timers that earthlings are over all the racial stuff we live thru today.

An example is Bashir( Bashir’s character is of Indian decent even thou the actor is of Arabic and British) : He participates in a Holodeck program AS a British RAF officer in the Blitz and later as a British Spy. During the setting of his games, British ( and especially their officers) RAPED and PILIDEGED India literaly and figureatively for 400 hundred years. (. and some argue that it goes on to some degree today) Nothing said becaus ehe an actor wouldn’t bring it up… and the writers know that he is a Trek character … and it would be out of character and unheard of to do so.

Avery Brooks ( by his own admission) had that scene put in there as a personal political statement. the Writers had to do a re-write to include it. He admited to a group of 500-700 people in the room that it was out of character… and that it was HIS feelings. Cassidy yates comes back with the Trekian answer… and Sisko gives in.

My argument is that it’s ( like avery admits) out of character for Sisko and any 24th century human to do. Avery admitted that it was a scene that told HIS feelings and as the star he was able to force in.

By doing that he changed trek. It says that humans DO still hold grudges about cultural differences ( injustices) from 400 years ago. Our HERO does it. We don’t grow beyond it, or above it… it’s always there, look at Sisko.

#37

Unfortunate. He probably wasn’t aware of the story of George Takei influence the writing of “The Naked Time” (the Sulu-with-a-sword episode.) The script originally called for him to have a samurai sword (the character is from Japan) but he suggested that it would show how much the world had changed if he was aping “The Three Musketeers” instead.

#38

I have to agree with Hansioux on most of this - particularly the Kira/Odo relationship resolution.

But see, if one is using a situation like Vic’s for entertainment without taking into account the history of it, well, I would react the same way he did. Perhaps it’s because DS9 is my most favorite Star Trek and probably the least utopian of the ones I’ve seen, but I think it was fine for Sisko to respond that way. I don’t think that Sisko was holding a grudge - he was choosing not to partake in an entertainment that, to him, was not entertainment. Even though the actor makes a political point (which I happen to agree with), it’s not out of character. Sisko was always reflective, thoughtful, informed. That always went along with it.

Edited to add: now that I think about my own life, it’s like my own decisions to buy fair trade, not shop at Wal-mart or Sam’s Club, etc.

Really, the only thing I agree with you about the criticisms is Ezri Dax. Why couldn’t she just be Ezri? That would have been better.

#39

I think they should have added Ezri… they tried way too hard to explain her story and that cut into so much of season 7’s time. If they had another season to go then they can do that. But season 7 have so much going on anyway. It’s too bad too, I loved the actress.

#40

I think you might have it backwards. The reason they kept putting him to do British things is exactly because the actor has a British upbringing and speaks with a British accent. Those are the direct result of writing for the actor. Not because the lack of the actor speaking out against it.

and i agree with the Ezri thing too. I love the actress, but they wasted so much time on trying to make her known to the fans, time that should have been spent on finishing the last season.