Deep Space Nine discussion

Television, Movies Games and Books Star Trek
#1

I am going to start threads dedicated to discussing the post TNG shows as we haven’t really had an opportunity to discuss them besides “Enterprise sucks!” “DS9 is awful!” “Voyager…wha?”

To start, I was a huge HUGE TNG fan. I remember waiting with giddy anticipation for DS9…they were going to show us the underbelly of the Federation on the rim of space…things were going to be dirty, broken…we were going to see view of an imperfect society with the Federation possibly not being the wholesome good for you group we had always thought it to be.

We started there. I think it lasted until about the second episode. I remember the hallways filled with garbage, wires hanging out of the ceiling…a general state of chaos and grittiness.

Then that stopped. Everything was fixed and we returned to standard fare. I watched for a season, maybe two and then got bored. This of course was before DVRs so it had less of a chance, but I simply wasn’t interested anymore.

I know there are many fans of the show here and I think I even recall one of the crüe saying there is a certain moment where the show picked up and became remarkable.

Thots?

#2

Ya know, I hate posts that are simply “Yeah! What he said!” but, I’m gonna have to go with it on this one. I would still occassionally watch an episode if I caught it on, but it really didn’t capture my interest. Then I started really getting into Babylon 5 & I was even less interested since there were so many story elements that were echoed in both shows. So essentially, DS9 kinda feel by the wayside for me.

#3

I loved DS9 when I watched it last summer. I actually watched it before I watched TNG, and awesome though TNG is, I like DS9 better.

Why? The characters, more than anything else.

I also really like that they are so invested in the Bajor/Cardassia conflict, something that can’t happen when you’re trekking off to wherever every week.

#4

DS9 was awesome. The first two seasons aren’t great, but then again the first two seasons of TNG weren’t great either. Once the arc kicks in it’s amazing. I have to say “In The Pale Moonlight” could be my favourite trek episode, if not favourite certainly well up there.

#5

Okay, Solai, here goes:

I frakkin’ LOVED Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

It’s my favorite of the Treks (and TV Guide’s too; I can’t find a link to the article, though.)

In many ways, Deep Space Nine is the spiritual precursor to Battlestar Galactica. What RDM, Ira Steven Behr, and the rest of the crew were trying to do with that show, held back by the constraints and conventions of Star Trek, is what you see in full bloom on BSG.

Real character development, ambiguous endings, political machinations, issues of faith and religion, sexual relationships–they all got trotted out long before Adama took the helm. Lots of Star Trek purists got their knickers in a bunch over the “grittiness” of the show, the lack of a starship (until the third season), and the focus on the war arc as antithetical to Gene Roddenberry’s happy, scrubby-clean vision of the future. But in many ways, DS9 affirmed a lot of the Great Bird’s optimism. It’s just that the characters actually had to go through some real trials to get there, and that made it the more valuable in the end.

Sadly, I haven’t been able to go back to the show in some time. It hasn’t aged well. It was still trapped in convention–both television conventions and those of Star Trek–despite ISB and RDM’s daring efforts. Though it’s leagues more sophisticated in many ways than what came before, it still clunks along embarrassingly at times. However, I still have a worn-out copy of “The Making of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine” with Ira Steven Behr’s signature in it, and his writing parter Hans Biemler, that I treasure.

I just realized I have so much more to say about this. Someone else reply so I can keep talking.

Perhaps watching the show with GWC friends would help revive it for me. Solai, check out the first season episode “Duet” if you want to see an early example of why this show was startingly good. It’s basically a stage play between Kira and the guest star, and the ending is heartbreaking.

#6

Hear, hear GF - you stole my thunder - right down to your mention of “Duet” - one of the best 50 minutes of sci fi ever on TV - because it was a universal tale that just happened to be on a sci fi show. The acting of Harris Yulin as Maritzza is unforgetable. And with Nana Visitor as the featured crew member there is that nice tie in to BSG. (Although, she should have demanded combat pay for staying on the stage with Yulin.)

#7

I really liked DS9, a little more than TNG to be honest.
Its probably my favorite trek series.
I liked the large story arcs they had, especially the whole war thing.

#8

This is probably the best TV star trek for me, there was more character development, and much better writing. Where star trek focuses on characters rather than just outside events, like an anomaly sending you back in time, to show human nature. instead DS9 just shows you the characters. i know there are exceptions but by far I like DS9 over all other star trek

#9

I think the crüe were talking about ‘The Way of the Warrior’. Once Worf joined the show really kicked into gear. There were so many character arcs on this show that it was literally the Soap Opera of Star Trek. I don’t think I’m helping its case.

As mentioned, watch ‘Duet’ from the first season.

Then there is ‘Blood Oath’ from the second season. Jadzia must honor an oath made by Curzon to three Klingons (all actors who played Klingons in Original Series Trek).

Then there is a two-parter in the third season ‘Improbable Cause’ and ‘The Die is Cast’. It reveals much of the mystery surrounding Garak, but like BSG the answers just create more questions.

#10

There is also Odo - one of the best characters in the canon, portrayed by one of the best actors to appear in any of the ST series (or at least, so say I). Rene A. was/is a classic scene stealer - even from Avery B. Every time.

For some reason etched in my mind from Season 1 is the end of one episode, when the usually grouchy Odo, turns himself into a spinning top for a group of delighted children on some godforsaken planet. Classic.

#11

As a fan who started with Babylon5 then reluctantly got into DS9, I have to say they are both great shows that can be enjoyed in different ways.

As much as I LOVED Babylon5 when it aired, I have to say I have trouble rewatching the series. First of all the CG didn’t age well. Back then everything look so cool but It looked horrible now. The story arch is awesome and beautiful, but sometimes I feel it spanned so far it gets too slow in places. That’s when I realized B5 didn’t pick up momentum until the 3rd season.

The same can pretty much be said about DS9. Even though couple of episodes from season 1 and 2 are incredible and deep, the story didn’t pick up until season 3. The difference is DS9 used models and the special effects still looks wonderful in today’s point of view. Then each arch is smaller, and easier to get through on rewatch.

And being more episodic, they were able to do some great stand alone episodes where hard philosophical questions were discussed.

Before BSG, DS9 was THE scifi that dealt with terrorism and religion. Babylon5 didn’t really get into that area. B5 dealt with a more abstract sense of religion. Though the Narn raise against Centaury was similar to Bajorans’ story with the Cardassians, DS9 got a lot more time to explore, revisit and expand on this topic. Whereas the freedom fighter v.s. terrorism deal was more like a back story in Babylon5.

Right after Sep. 11th, DS9 really hit home for me. Everytime I watch it, it made me think about what was happening in the real world at the time. DS9 for me was prophetic and easy to rewatch, and I learned to love it. Perhaps now a little more than I love Babylon5.

Like any scifi, find a couple of good stand alone episodes to learn about the characters, when you start caring about the characters then go and watch it in series. That’s how I got into TNG, DS9 and Voyager.

As for DS9, watch S4E03 The Visitor and S4E06 Rejoined.

Those two are easy to get into stories that allows you to understand the characters.

#12

The CGI back then probably did look cool but there’s a reason it looks crappy on DVD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5#Mastering_problems

#13

yeah, i read about the wide screen transfer stuff, how the films were shot in wide screen, but the CGI were done for full screen aspect ratio, so when on the DVD they made it full screen they had to do extra work to try to recreate it.

Anyway, my thought is they could have just released it in fulls creen instead of wide screen…

But still, even when I rewatch In the Beginning, which was a TV movie so without all the mastering issues, and it still feels less cool than when i first watched it…

It did get a lot better after the 4th season though.

#14

Wow, I also agree that you should see the eps. “Duet,” “In the Pale Moonlight,” and “The Visitor.” The first and third could be seen as virtually stand-alone episodes if you’re not yet extremely familiar with the show.

Interestingly, Michael Taylor, who wrote a lot for BSG including “Unfinished Business,” also wrote “In the Pale Moonlight” and “The Visitor,” for which he was nominated for a Hugo award.

Here’s the quote from the Battlestar Wiki:

Michael Taylor earned his first Hugo nomination in 1996 for the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine episode “The Visitor.” [3] In 2002, Taylor was nominated for a Nebula Award, for writing the Dead Zone episode “Unreasonable Doubt” [4], and he was nominated again in 2007 for his work on the Battlestar Galactica episode “Unfinished Business”. [5] Currently, Taylor is a 2008 nominee for the Hugo Award for “Best Dramatic Presentation (Short Form)” for the television movie “Razor”. [6]

Michael Taylor also wrote a number of Voyager episodes, including an offbeat sort of one-off called “Bride of Chaotica!” that is one of my favorites.

I have much more to say about DS9 but need to think on it some more… Solai, I hope you get a chance to watch at least these few eps. that people have recommended. I know there’s a lot in there that you would enjoy.

Fwiw, I watched DS9 when it originally aired, but fell out of it after a while. When I finally got the opportunity to watch it on DVD, in order, without distractions, it just blew me away. I never realized how good the show was when treated as it was intended - an epic serial, rather than an episodic show like Voyager and others.

#15

I have to say that I like DS9 better than anything ( well except the Kirk movies… but that’s more nostalgia than anything)

Duet’s is in my top 10 as well. I actualy like the episodes that take place on Terok nor the best. The one where Kira meet’s her mother and the one where Odo is resolving the crime. ( Red Forman from the 70’s show is the cardasian security chief) both are awsome… also anything with Garek.

I found myself likeing episodes featureing Gul Dukat… I don’t know why. He was interesting whenever he was around. I wanted so much to thinkhim not evil… adn he kept disapointing. I could type for hours. The best trek ever. better than Picard and the lame TNG guys anyday. ( I never missed a TNG episode… but never thought it the equal of kirk’s era. ds9 changed that)

I was disapponted in Nemisis when there was no mention of Worf being the Klingon Ambasador… I really thought there should have been a nod to that.

#16

i also loved Dukat episodes… Dukat is sort of like the Baltar of DS9… until when he went all religious and lost it… wait… that sounds familiar…

#17

I am in “love DS9” camp. Not so much as B5, perhaps, but that is because B5 always seemed more sophisticated and philosophical to me. It is easily my favorite ST series, because it has great characters that are allowed to grow both personally and with each other. The fact the station is not terribly mobile means that they have to deal with the issues and each other. It was riviting stuff, for me at least.

I will grant you that the series really does not get its legs until about the third season. There are glimpses of greatness earlier, but once the Dominion arc gets kicked off the series takes off like a shot.

Two of my favorite episodes focus on Jake and Nog. The one where Jake convinces Bashir to take him down to the war torn planet and Jake discovers what courage really is was enough to make me speachless. The other episode is where Nog is trying ot help the Federation soldiers evacuate and gets caught in cave-to-cave fighting. I won’t give away what happens, but it was one of the best curveballs I have seen in Trek.

#18

I too really enjyoed watching DS9, it was the later ones that drew you in to the show. maybe because it got darker, more Star Trek is so bright and happy. B5 on the other hand was a great 5 year story arc. people come and go, people die and others live. it felt more real. showing that when we do meet other races that not all will be nice, but might try to use us for slaves or some other crazy stuff.

#19

B5 is more sophisticated or philosophical in the sense that the whole arch of B5 (at least until Season 4) revolved around a major philosophical theme. Everything happened because of this hidden philosophical battle of two sides.

You have Vorlons and Shadows both claiming to be helping the younger species survive. Only that one side thinks conflict will weed out the weak and the other believes evolution only comes through finding peace.

The Vorlons asks “Who are you”, a inward search for meaning. The Shadows asks “What do you want”, which at first glance is an outward search for purpose, but when looked hard enough can also be a search from within.

But in the end the main characters discovered both sides are manipulative bastards, that neither side had an answer for the question they proposed. And that journey is very philosophical in the abstract sense.

But with this many years behind me, and already having gone through the story a couple of times, B5 seemed too straight forward. Down to having Sheridan basically telling all that to us in a speech to the Vorlons and the Shadows.

DS9 deals with smaller pieces of philosophical questions. It too has several archs of philosophical questions, one of which is “what is religion”. But in the true RDM way, nothing was ever explained in a speech. Even when the episode and the show is over, the real meaning and intention is still talked about by fans over and over.

And that is the beauty of DS9, and in retrospect, DS9 actually had a more sophisticated way of story telling. At least after season 2 when the quality is more consistant.

By the way, DS9’s search for “what is religion” is absolutely beautiful. Explored from the perspective of Kira a true believer, Sisko a reluctant believer, Odo a non-believer but treated as a God, and others whose only aim is to use and exploit religion, the span of that exploration is beautiful. And when the series is over, the viewers still is left to decide for themselves.

#20

not wanting to thread jack… but I could only say this in a DS9 page. If I said it in teh B5 thread I would just be imposeing on the B5 lovers. Because they both take palce on a space station… people always caompare the two.

When it came out, I watched the first two episodes and thought it to be crap. But Every geek friend I had went on and on and on. Later I played te RPG and thought that I wanted to watch the show.

I finaly broke down and rented the whole series. I downloded the follow up movies. ( and crusade which I like a lot better- becuase Lucus Buck was the skipper, but I will not include it in this review )I thought that the first season was abysmal. the second… mostly abysmal. The third acceptable. the forth I thought was good only because I liked the Centari story arch.

So here is my review. out of 100 or so episodes total there are really only about 15-25 episodes that are actually good. Those good ones are REALY good. But, you have to watch many, many, many poorly acted and poorly writen episodes just to understand them.

I am not bitching about the effects… the show was pretty good for it’s time. I really mostly bitch about the majority of the acting and the writeing. Certain actors , I felt, were horrible. Plus there is the forced feeling of trying to create an epic as opposed to something just being so good it becomes epic.

I think if you watch the episodes on dvd one after the other you really notice how bad it is, as opposed to watching once a week for years. ( as opposed to DS9 which is a better show when watched on Spike marathons) I am that way when I buy series. I really liked them when they were on TV but upon further review… they don’t hold up as much. ( Lone Gunmen, Highlander, old BSG,) So many of you who used to love the series, might not like it as much now.

but Ivana and garabldi and the druged up guy from Dr. Drew’s rehab show and Grease ( his name escapes me) NEVER learned to act, ever. I challange anyone to honestly remove your love for the characters and watch the performances and find two mins of honestly good acting out of any of these three. Vir coto as well , I like the character’s usefulness… but he can’t act either. just not good. These guys aren’t good. I don’t mean I don’t like their characters… I mean that the actors deliver their lines at a less than professional level. Their timeing is horrible. Dialog is really bad for Ivanava. but hey, MS got what he paid for. i would have them in our crappy comminity theatre, but the fact that they were in 4-5 seasons of TV is an attrocity.

explaining WHY an episode sucks doesn’t make it ok ( aka “well they got cut short in production” or " this wasn’t their intent" - hogwash) … what matters is that the episode you just watched was a waste of your time.

I wanted to like this show so much… but as I am now an adult, and living in a time period where I am not “geek defaulted” to likeing something JUST because it’s sci-fi… I don’t think it’s worth the time I devoted watching the majority of the bad episodes inorder to see the good ones. If your time isn’t valuable… and you don’t mind watching 6 - 10 hours of crap for every 1 hour of acceptable and occasionaly good TV, watch this show.

But I have to admit it was the worst series I ever liked. And I will still follow it, because I have invested so much time in it. But if someone had told me all this… rather than be total geeks and praise it and say it was " better than DS9, so epic and good, bla , blah blah… " I wouldn’t have watched

PS: The B5 lost tales that came out last year is great… if you wasted your time watching the rest in order to understand it.

DS9 was very well written, well acted, and stands up to viewing in 2009 much much much better than b5