A Song of Ice and Fire series (spoilers for all 4 books)

I kind of wish fans weren’t so bitter about the series. Yes it’s taken forever for Dance to come out but I’d rather have a book where GRRM worked out the bit he was stuck on than have a version where he rushed to get it out and it ends up being bad. I think it will be better for all the time he took on it.

I already avoid most of the ASoIaF forums because of the bitterness and I can only imagine the fake spoilers some of them would put out just for spite. It’s going to be an interesting few weeks until the book is officially out now that some people actually have the book.

I’m surprised that at least one of those physical copies hasn’t been scanned and uploaded yet. Not that I’ve looked, no of course not :oops:

Yeah, that’s annoying.

I find the bitterness alone annoying without any spoiling but that fans are so bitter that they would not only spoil the book many of us have waited 6 years for but that they might give out fake spoilers on top of it is kind of mind boggling.

The spoilers are already out there, I’ve seen a few posts in other communities warning that the Westeros.org forums are already littered with them. So I’m avoiding the forums over there until after I’ve read the book.

George himself has now confirmed that people are posting fake spoilers for Dance. He’s actually pretty upset at Amazon Germany for the mix up and at those who are spoiling the book for other fans.

I wasn’t really surprised to see that he posted on his blog about it but I haven’t seen a post from him be this angry in quite a while.

So I finished A Feast For Crows this week and am going crazy waiting for Dance. My real fear is how long the wait for the NEXT book will be. Guess I don’t need to worry to much about hat now and let myself enjoy the new book.

On the Sansa thing- she is still alive, and for that, i feel she does deserve some credit, not on the same level as Arya, but she is navigating the world she’s trapped in as best she can. There are different skill sets involved in her world. I would like to see her reunited with Tyrion and have both of hem bring down Littlefinger.

I hope we get more on Cersei in Dance, I don’t know if I can handle waiting on the next book for her fate.

On the Cersei/Margauray (I know I totally butchered her name) plot- I was shocked. I knew giving the faith power was dangerous, but I thot the septor was as ambitious as Cersei. I guess he is, in his own way. That whole business makes up for the Red Wedding for me.

Gods I love these books!

Oh gods. Don’t let the ASoIaF fans that have been waiting for six years hear you say that…

My real fear is how long the wait for the NEXT book will be.

It should be much shorter. The problem with this one is that he got himself into a ‘knot’ in terms of plotlines. I can’t wait to see how he resolved it.

I too think it will be a much shorter wait this time around (at least I hope so b/c 6 years was a long time to wait), that “knot” really messed him up and I can’t wait to see how he unraveled it. It was kind of expected since he now has so many characters heading to Dany or in her general vicinity. That had to be difficult to work out, which is why I think the book had to go past the timeframe of Feast.

book 3 discussion

I’m only about a third I think? into book 3 (the problem with kindle books, especially if you buy a pack of 4 books together, is that I’ve no idea how much I’ve read- kinda wished they could have separated the file into separate books so it’s easier to keep track) , but I’m starting to see what you’re saying now… :smiley: He seems to almost care a little about her, which is…sort of sweet, and really odd given what we’ve seen of Jaime so far. And yeah, there was that fight scene a few chapters back they had that basically read like a sex scene with all the description of the sword fighting. I’m now really, really curious who they’re going to cast as Brienne. Can’t wait to see those scenes on the show…in 2 years!

As for Tyrion and Sansa and the possible union of the two, I was surprised that I wasn’t surprised by that. As soon as the Tyrells informed Sansa of their plans for her, I had that sneaking suspicion she’d be wed to someone Lannister related. I first thought it would be Littlefinger, honestly (given the whole Catelyn crush), but Tyrion would have been my second guess in terms of what they want to do with Sansa since Joffrey got Margaery. Puts her in an interesting position, so while I’m not a huge fan of Sansa (but I’m also not a Sansa hater…at least not yet…? Oh, man. I glimpsed just a little at the earlier Sansa posts, not much so I don’t know what’s going to happen at all, but enough to know it doesn’t sound so good), I find myself very interested because of where she stands in the story. There’s also a nice parallel with Sansa to Cersei as well that I’ve been interested since book 2, so I actually am finding a little odd that people seem so averse to her as a character. She’s not a character I want to have a beer with, that’s for sure, but I enjoy her chapters as much as - or even more - than some other characters’ chapters, and the part she plays or might be playing in the bigger scheme of things…if this whole Tyrion thing actually happens. A big if of course, since nothing ever goes the way it’s supposed to anyway. :smiley: And also, I like the Hound, and he seems to only around when we’re in the Sansa chapters.

The producers of the show are planning on moving some of Jaime’s book 3 stuff into season 2 so you may get to see of the Jaime/Brienne stuff next season.

I feel bad for Sansa and the only thing that prevents me from liking her is that she betrayed Ned and Arya. As a Stark and the daughter of Catelyn I find that hard to get past. If she were from any other family I’d likely love her. I can say that her chapters are some of the most interesting where the court intrigue is concerned. She gives us a different view on things, one not complicated by playing the political game.

Book 3 discussions

YAY! And, understandable too, since Jaime literally I think has only one significant scene in book 2, which they showed a bit of in S1 already. Though I guess that means the entire Theon/Bran/Rickon arc will be shifted a bit forward (mid season?), since sending Jaime back to trade was partly Cat’s reaction to Bran and Rickon’s ‘deaths’. But holy crap, Jaime’s Luke Skywalker! Wow. But yeah. Bring on Brienne/Jaime.

I feel bad for Sansa and the only thing that prevents me from liking her is that she betrayed Ned and Arya. As a Stark and the daughter of Catelyn I find that hard to get past. If she were from any other family I’d likely love her. I can say that her chapters are some of the most interesting where the court intrigue is concerned. She gives us a different view on things, one not complicated by playing the political game.

This might be an odd view, but I think Sansa is more her father’s daughter than her mother’s daughter. Both Ned and Sansa ended up stupidly having convos with Cersei they shouldn’t have - Ned naively seeking an honorable way out of the mess, and Sansa because she didn’t have an idea of what’s at risk, and didn’t think Cersei was someone not to be trusted. Like, Sansa was raised as a woman, and she follows the rules and naively believes that as long as she performs the best she can as a woman doing everything by the book, everything should be fine; fairytales are real, and all knights being honorable and kings and queens are just and all that jazz. I think the only thing I hated Sansa was betraying Arya…but I kind of get it too. Ned mentions to Arya later on that Sansa had to stay loyal to her bethrothed, because that’s what honor is for women - to follow their husbands and be loyal to them. Sansa’s just doing what she’s been raised to behave, and because she’s naive and kind of dumb (and sadly, fangirling over Joffrey), she truly believes all of that. I don’t know. I still believe Sansa is a Stark. For now.

Mostly, I think I like Sansa (and Cersei)'s POV because they both provide a woman’s POV in the courts. For every Arya or Danearys in Westeros, there are hundreds and thousands of Sansas, so I think it’s important to have this POV, to see how Sansa - who isn’t without her Stark morals, even if she’s a bit of a coward/naive - would grow in this environment. Is she another Cersei in the making? Or will she continually be naive and used a pawn when needed? And now, she’s also Tyrion’s wife. Holy bazooka. Definitely curious how that’ll go. I’m hoping her hanging out with Tyrion will make her smarter, though knowing Martin he’d probably have Sansa do something incredibly stupid and naive which causes Tyrion to die or get hurt or something, and then I’d really have a reason to hate Sansa for, heh.

But anyway. That’s a whole lot of Sansa talk, when I should be talking about how much I enjoyed the chapter where Dany and her dragons kill that dude who was selling the Unsullied. BAMF. Wow.

There is so little for Jaime to do in book 2 they have to move some of his book 3 stuff into season 2. Jaime is all kinds of awesome, especially once he gets around Brienne. I think out of all the knights we’ve actually seen in the series he’s the most like the knights from the stories. Sure he killed the King but any truly honorable person would have even if it meant breaking his oath. Aerys was crazy and Jaime saved a ton of people by doing it. Of course no one sees it that way. The only thing he’s really done wrong is throw Bran out the window and I’ve already forgiven him for that.

I agree with most of your ideas about Sansa except for her being a Stark. She’s one in name only and I think she’s less of a Stark now because Lady was killed. The direwolves are very closely linked to the Stark children. There is a reason there were enough pups for all of the Stark children and I think it was a very bad thing for Sansa that hers was killed. I still see what she did as a betrayal even if she was doing as Ned said she was. I’m hoping that George gives her something to do that will make me overlook what she did in book 1 but so far I haven’t seen it.

As for Dany, there is a reason all of the Game of Thrones merchandise I’ve purchased from HBO either has her on it or the Targaryen sigil. She is my choice to rule Westeros and book 3 is where she really starts to show her leadership potential IMO. I’m very anxious now for book 5 because Dany, Jon and Tyrion chapters make up just over half of the book. I want to see more of Dany growing into her leadership role. I want to see her become the Queen that she has the potential to be. Rhaegar never got the chance to be King but I think Dany will be as good a Queen as he would have been a King, if not better.

For those not doing a re-read, Tor.com has a recap of where everyone is at the end of AFFC.

OMG. I just wrote a massive epic length post regarding ASoS (which I finished a few hours ago)…and LOST IT. tears hair out

Anyway, short recap (yes, this is short, so imagine the long post I wrote):

  1. So many WTF HOLY CRAAP moments in the last third of the books. Seriously. Could barely catch my breath. I get why this book is a favorite. And I feel a bit bad for ACoK, because I think that book did a lot of the work to set up a lot of things, that made all the WTF moments happening all so quickly one after another in ASoS possible.)
  2. But…after the “red wedding” (now I know what this means…!! I saw the term in glimpses, but I always assumed it had something to do with Joffrey’s wedding. Then again, all weddings are nuts in the world of Westeros, huh?) chapter, I didn’t read the book for a few days because I was so saddened by it. That really got to me. Poor Robb. Poor Greywind. Poor Greatjon! And Poor Catelyn, who I thought died thinking all her children are dead.
  3. I think I’ve really become a Sansa apologist, for reasons I wrote in detail about but that all got lost. I think the book actually does try to make her likable with all her flashbacks to Winterfell and her siblings. (on the flipside, we don’t see her siblings thinking about her much other than how she’s situated and how that affects things). But, IDK, I feel like I get her, and I think I actually like her and care about what happens to her. I get that this is like taboo in the fandom. I apologize. :smiley: Maybe she’ll do something horrible in book 4 that will change my mind. But they keep pairing her off with characters I’m fascinated by. So that works in her favor.
  4. Impressed with Dany’s decision to stay put and learn to govern and rule a city before getting her kingdom. Wise decision. Unsure if I liked all the stuff with Jorah though - played out in ways that was too predictable (for now). Barristan reveal was pretty great.
  5. Love the (momentary) payoff of Jon’s SL…even though honestly, I think all the wildling stuff I wasn’t the most interested in in this book. Love Sam. Love Grenn. Love Pyp. So…what’s up with Jon’s mother? Love the tie in with Stannis/Melissandra, love Davos finally getting Stannis to where he needed to be, and figured it was about time the fire/ice stuff get together. (So…how would Dany and her fiery dragons fit in with all of this? Hmm.) And Sam knowing about Bran and keeping that secret…lots of good stuff.
  6. HOLY CRAP CAT IS ALIVE?? (if slightly bald?) Did not expect that. Martin has tricked me of my tears…again.
  7. man, I still hope The Hound is alive. Very intrigued where Arya’s SL will go. She was thisclose to getting back to Robb/Cat. yes, I still think about the red wedding and grimace in pain sometimes. That…was one brutal chapter
  8. Jaime is teh ossim. Brienne is teh ossim. They should just make out already. :smiley: I like the trust and respect they’ve built between them. Sad about how things are left off with Tyrion/Jaime.
  9. Wow, Tyrion just killed his father. OMG OMG OMG See, if Tyrion died because Sansa inadvertently made him a scapegoat, I would HATE Sansa. But that didn’t happen. And I kind of like how close Tyrion and Sansa was to forging a real bond between them, if only Tyrion wasn’t so defeated and Sansa was so mistrusting of anyone Lannister by then. I really think they had some common ground and could have actually been a team…But…
  10. Slippery Littlefinger! Guess my earlier suspicions about him did kind of come true. But wow, I didn’t expect him to throw Lysa out the moon door, at least not so soon.
  11. Varys still mystifies me as to what he’s thinking. I get it…but then I don’t get it at all. SO MYSTERIOUS. What is he up to, really?
  12. lots more, but now I can’t remember all the points I made. STUPID BROWSER.
  1. Storm of Swords really does pay off a lot of things that are set up in the first 2 books.

  2. The Red Wedding is the moment that makes most people put the book down for a while. I know I certainly did the first time I read it. It’s the reason I hate the Frey’s even more than I hate Cersei and Tywin.

  3. I dislike Sansa and I can understand her actions to an extent but I really wish she’d do something that could make me like her.

  4. Dany, like Jon, continues to be one of the only characters who has real power that manages to make wise decisions. I too find the whole plot with Jorah a little on the weird side and hard to like.

  5. Jon’s storyline gets very interesting at the end of Storm. As for his mother, [spoiler]there is no where that actually states who it is but many believe the most popular theory about who she is. The theory is the Jon is not Ned’s bastard but the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. There is evidence to support it and the only living person who was at the Tower of Joy when Ned found her has kept himself hidden away. I personally believe that Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife which would make him a legitimate Targaryen. This would explain why Ned told no one who is mother is, not even Robert.[/spoiler]

  6. The last two chapters of Storm both had me go what the frak when I finished them. Lysa admitting to killing her husband and then finding out that Cat was still alive and going after Frey’s with the Brotherhood.

  7. I’m not much of a Hound fan so I really don’t care if he’s alive or not but since we haven’t officially “seen” him dead I’d say there is a good possibility he’s still alive.

  8. This book is what made me think Jaime and Brienne should totally get together. They are both awesome and respect each other in a way no one else does. She’s a far better choice for him than Cersei. And I loved Tyrion killing Tywin. He deserved exactly what Tyrion gave him.

  9. Littlefinger should be thrown out the moon door. I really can’t stand him. The guy betrayed Ned out of some schoolboy crush he had on Cat and anger over Brandon besting him in that fight. I want to see him go down hard, hopefully roasted by one of Dany’s dragons. He’s as bad as Walder Frey in my book, no allegiance to anyone but himself.

  10. To me Varys is all about helping get Dany on the throne at this point. I think it’s actually been his plan all along. I think he and Illyrio carefully orchestrated the marriage and then said the right things to Viserys so he’d go with them as they made their journey to Vaes Dothrak knowing he was stupid and crazy enough to do something that would get him killed. He may not have counted on Dany becoming the leader she has, he was probably hoping she’d be more malleable than crazy Viserys, but at this point she’s the one best suited for ruling Westeros in the long term and the one he would likely lend his support to. Stannis is too rigid and under Mellisandre’s control, Jon will likely stay on the wall unless there is no longer a need for the Night’s Watch and all the other contenders would be horrible to be in power with the Others come. They need Dany and her dragons if Westeros is to survive the coming winter and the Others.

I added spoiler tags to the above, even though it’s a fan theory and this is a spoiler zone, since coco is only through the first three.

ahhhh Coco! You described what I feel about Sansa perfectly. Except I don’t like her. I understand her for the very reasons you stated, but I don’t like her. I don’t like her because I can’t respect her because ultimately she puts her faith & loyalty in people she should not. She is not loyal to her family, given that her family, although not always perfect & in some ways seriously dysfunctional, they are a solid family she had no business betraying. For that I can’t forgive her & I can’t respect her at all.

I think you’re right about her direwolf being killed as well. Something was lost that she desperately needs.

That’s exactly why I don’t like her. I want to like her so badly but I just can’t get past what she did. She’s sympathetic but untrustworthy. I think it’s a good thing Arya, Bran and Rickon are believed dead and far away from Sansa.

Pike, thanks for adding the spoiler tags. I didn’t read it. Though it definitely is taunting me there. No, I’m not going to do it. No. Instead, I’m going to spend my day off reading book 4. Well, after this post. :smiley:

I don’t like her because I can’t respect her because ultimately she puts her faith & loyalty in people she should not. She is not loyal to her family, given that her family, although not always perfect & in some ways seriously dysfunctional, they are a solid family she had no business betraying. For that I can’t forgive her & I can’t respect her at all.

Maybe it is because everyone keeps saying how unlikable she is, so I was all prepared and kept expecting her to do something really terrible after GoT…and she hasn’t. She’s basically been the one Stark to have been in what I think to be the worst position of all because she’s not just hiding from or fighting her enemies, she was stuck in the hornet’s nest and had to sit pretty and smile at the Lannisters every day for the past 3 books, and now in the hands of someone who pretty much choreographed the demise of the Starks and is being all pervy. Maybe that’s also why I cut her a bit of slack as well. I really don’t think her betrayal to her family was a betrayal. With Ned, I blame her naivite, but in the same regard I did Ned’s when he started the ball rolling himself by telling Cersei what he knew and totally shouldn’t have. I didn’t hate Ned for his stupidity, so I don’t hate Sansa for her stupidity either. They were both completely out of their leagues in that part anyway. The thing with Arya, I think Sansa paid the worst price for not backing Arya up with her direwolf, and I bought Ned’s explanation, which is what ‘honor’ for women meant - she was being loyal, to her betrothed, as Catelyn was loyal to Ned. And I was weirdly much more pissed that Sansa forgot to mention her in the letter Cersei instructed her to write, but since we’ve seen a few instances where Sansa recalled memories of Arya (and her other siblings and family), I’m good with her for forgetting about Arya in that moment. She just saw Joffrey lop Ned’s head off, after all. And I don’t think she did anything afterwards that made me feel like she’s disloyal or untrustworthy. But I also get the argument that Sansa hasn’t done anything proactive to make people like her either. That is most definitely true, so I get the hate. She hasn’t done anything, because she’s been nothing but a pawn for the past 3 books. She’s no Dany or Jon or Arya or anyone highly rootable. But IDK, I keep anticipating her to at some later point in the series to finally do something great …but I guess AFfC ain’t it! But I feel it’ll happen. Maybe…

Or maybe not. I’ll probably eat my words because she’d do something really gross in the next book. :smiley: But for now, I’m cool with Sansa. But I do think the direwolf death did signify her Stark-ness, especially since she’s not even really Sansa anymore by the end of book 3. But she was building a Winterfell snow castle! That got to me too.

Littlefinger should be thrown out the moon door. I really can’t stand him. The guy betrayed Ned out of some schoolboy crush he had on Cat and anger over Brandon besting him in that fight. I want to see him go down hard, hopefully roasted by one of Dany’s dragons. He’s as bad as Walder Frey in my book, no allegiance to anyone but himself.

See, I know he’s a terrible guy. But I also marvel at how deft his planning was, and how effed up he is with his obsession with Catelyn, or perhaps his obsession with gaining power because he’s not highborn. I would love to see a scene when Catelyn faces him off after all this frakkery. Even Walder Frey, I hate him, but then I also have to be a little impressed by how well his plan worked for him, gruesome and heartbreaking it was. It made sense for him to want to betray them. And that’s why I like the books so much. There isn’t some evil dude twiddling his mustache being all obviously evil - which going back to BSG for a moment, is what I disliked most about how the series dealt with Cavil. He was interesting …and then became a total mustache twiddler. That disappointed me even more than them flying all their ships into the sun. That, at least, I can block out. With these books so far, I think Martin’s careful not to do that for the main characters, good/bad/grey. There’s purpose, there’s reason. (Though I think that might be a little side problem for Dany, because for now, she’s been facing off these characters who are pretty one dimensionally horrid, so of course I’m rooting for her to burn their faces off. Which is why I liked her decision to stay, since that would give her problems that aren’t so one sided.) Closest to that is Tywin, really, who I do think is a total poopyhead, but then again he provides the reason to feel sympathy for his frakked up kids, and so there’s a purpose for him being the most frigid and awful father. (and hey, Tyrion killed him. And I totally yayed that, except I feel bad for Tyrion now having to carry the burden of being a kinslayer.) And Joffrey, who is also a total poopyhead, but was stupid up to the moment he died and how he died, so the book gave me some excellent payoff on easily dislikable characters (man, I don’t know if I want to know what happens with Sansa now, since she’s obviously much disliked.) But yeah, I don’t know if I actually hate anyone in the series. It all works and fits into the puzzle. I might not root for them (well, for the most part), but I like them all.

She’s a far better choice for him than Cersei.

IKR?? Damn men who think with their nether regions. I had problems with why Jaime is so attached to Cersei in the past 2 books, but now that I have a much better understanding of how the King’s guard works, Tywin, and all his POVs, I kind of get why Jaime just can’t let Cersei go. There’s that narcissism peeking in, what with doing your own twin. But yup. Jaime, look at Brienne’s twinkling eyes! He was able to forge that trust and respect with Brienne, and that seems almost impossible for Lannisters to do, trusting outsiders (Tywin’s doing, obvs. It affects all three of his kids. Man Tyesha. Wow.), but it totally happened. I just hope we’d get some kind of reunion in the next book, because leaving Jaime all alone in King’s Landing makes me sad because there goes all the witty banter.

To me Varys is all about helping get Dany on the throne at this point. I think it’s actually been his plan all along…etc

Yeah, I would agree. But with Varys, I just don’t know. Is he ultimately someone whose only goal all along was to get a Targaryan back on the throne? Or is that merely because all the other candidates for kings, well, suck? Does he really care that much about realm? Can someone be so impartial to being on anyone’s side? The thing with Varys is that I’m never sure. He is too good at what he does, he really seems to anticipate everything that comes his way, and I never know quite what he’s up to or why he does what he does, even after 3 books. Which is why he’s awesome.

Honestly, if you’ve finished Storm of Swords it’s not really a spoiler, especially as it hasn’t even been proven. The theory has been around since long before A Feast for Crows was even published and all the evidence for it is from the first 3 books, actually the evidence is almost solely from Game of Thrones.