12/2007 Winner: Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein

GWC Community Book Club Winning Nominees and Polls
#41

I admit I intentionally went a little overboard there to prove a point. All I meant was that as a side benefit, yeah it’d be great, but as a justification in itself for conscription? I don’t think so.

I personally think that you can’t induce a sense of responsibility for the same reason that you can’t force it. Though I can understand that the state, community, or whatever, would want to give a helpful push in the right direction, there’s no telling where that little push would cause a person to go. It may lead to the development of civic virtues and a sense of responsibility, and it may not.

Perfect example. In my province, Ontario, every high school student is required by law to fulfill forty hours of community service. Now at the time I was in high school, I really didn’t agree with some governmental body telling me how to spend my free time. So I just forced myself through it as quickly as possible, and didn’t really take anything from it. It’s only years later that I looked back on what I did, and realized what the government/community/whatever was trying to help me develop those values. However, I could have very easily gone the other way - been totally resentful that my government was telling me what to do, and how to think. I could have never gotten what being a citizen was all about, and the experience would have been a wasted one.

Ultimately Spencer, I think it just comes with time and experience for some people - and for others, lessons like civic virtue and maturity just never take hold, regardless of how many times you teach them, or what experiences you give them.

#42

Thanks. It Might be cliche, but it’s reasuring to know people are the same no matter where they are.

#43

I started to think about what makes a Utopian book vs. Dis-Utopian, and then tried to fit SST into the frame. Since both can show a blemished future, I guess the division lies in the direction and progress of soceity at the end. To help me decide, I listed a bunch of books that looked at future visions of soceity and tried to decide. I understand that this could be a matter of perspective and opinion.

Utopian: Red, Green & Blue Mars, The Postman, Anthem, The Fountain Head, Enders Game + both trilogies, Battlefield Earth, 2001, 2010, 2061,

Dis-Utopian: 1984, Brave New World, WE, Farenheit 451, The Worthing Chronicle, I Robot,

Both: Dune

So my decision was that SST was Utopian, at the end of the book, it seemed as if humanity was on the path to prevailing against the bugggers, alliances were established with the skinnies, and Earth was at relative peace.

What are your thoughts?

#44

Heinlein was adamently against the idea of required national service. He regularly called conscription and the draft, slave armies. In Starship Troopers the only official reward given for federal service for veterans was full citizenship and the vote (along with a pension for those who served a full career of 20 years in the service.)

There were a number of hints and allusions in the book that there were numerous unofficial perks to be had from service, but that is just veterans and former veterans protecting the interests of their own.

#45

I think you are right about SST being utopian, if those are the only two choices. I am not sure, however, that its primary concern is a portrayal and/or prescription for present society; so I wonder if classifying it as either a utopia or a dystopia is productive. Does it add anything to your understanding or enjoyment of the book to do so?

Similarly, I’m not sure Dune is either a utopia or dystopia, since the society Herbert portrays is so far removed from our present society, it is effectively “alien” (albeit populated by humans and with many recongizably human elements: medieval feudalism, ecclesiastical heirarchies, etc.).

For sure, though, Bradbury’s F451 is a dystopia, yes. It is clearly rooted in our society (extrapolated only barely into the future) and has a clearly polemical purpose (even if it is one I agree with, about the value of literature in communicating and sustaining positive human values). Utopias and dystopias are always, I think, have a primarily polemical or argumentative purpose; and while SST has some (possibly) polemical elements, I think Heinlein has written a text too nuanced to be reduced to one side of the dichotomy or the other.

Another great sf dystopia was “Max Headroom,” and shame on the GWC hosts for not liking it! :slight_smile:

#46

Hello everyone,

I’m Chris from Germany and this is going to my first post in the forum, so Greetings from my side of the big pond.

I would like to join in on the discussion about voluntary vs. mandatory national service.

As much as I approve of mandatory service, not any specific kind, just the general concept, because I think that it would instill a sense of unity among the age group/generation performing the service, I also have to say that, historically, it’s a double-edged sword.

Whenever a state takes the right to participate in the political process and attach to it a pre-requirement like having served in the military or whatever, then this state is forcing its citizens in a certain direction. Which can be a good thing, but it can also be a dangerous tool for manipulation of the public, depending what type of government you have.

Now, about 70 years ago, the Nazi government in my country had installed an organization called the HJ (Hitlerjugend - Hitler’s Youth), which on paper was a voluntary, nation-wide organization for teenagers and it was up to you if you wanted to join or not. But in reality, parents were pressured to have their kids sign up, young adults were pressured by their peers who were in the HJ to join and basically, if you didn’t have the membership, there was just no way a high-school graduate could go to University or get a decent apprenticeship because the authorities wouldn’t let him. Moreover, the whole point of the HJ was to provide quasi-military or pre-military trained 18-year-olds who could later be drafted into the Wehrmacht.
This system as such was set up by the Third Reich and they were at pains to establish it throughout the country. Now imagine how much more rapidly and thouroughly the Nazi authorities would have managed to reach out to Germany’s young adults if such a system of mandatory national service would already have been established by the democratic Weimar Republic, the Third Reich’s predecessor. In my opinion, it’s dangerous to have a system in place that would require large party of the population or even large parts of the teenage population to enrol in it, because it could easily be perverted by a not-so-democratic administration.

Now, when you go further back in history, the ancient Romans had a political system that was in some ways astonishingly similar to the one Heinlein depicted in Starship Troopers. During the Roman Republic, only those citizens who had enough money to serve in the legions (until around 100 B.C., the legionaries had to pay for their own equipment, which was anything but cheap!) had the right to vote.

So, those were my thoughts on the topic, my first post here. Hope to be back soon.

#47

Chris – Thanks for rasing a good point out of Germany’s historical experience. Welcome to the fun on the forums, too! :slight_smile: It is interesting that the cultural pressure to sign up doesn’t seem to be present in Starship Troopers – certainly, Johnny’s father pressures him in the other direction – but I see how that danger is inherent and it is good to keep it in mind.

Of course, mandatory service of some kind might also be seen as alleviating that pressure: everyone has to do something, no one is exempt. But you are quite right to point out the problems.

#48

GalaxyRanger,

Welcome! I am assuming English is not your primary language, and just wanted to say you write very well if that’s the case—kudos. English is my primary language, and believe me I can barely speak it as is!

You make a very interesting point—one that I had not considered—about the Hitler youth. With that in mind, I definitely agree that national service is a double edged sword. I still think some form of national service is a good idea, but implementing it effectively is difficult.

Oh by the way, I lived in Germany once upon a time—in Bamberg. Although I think they have closed the military base there now, but it was a nice place for sure! Plus great people; lots of fun! Drunken go-kart racing:D………now there’s a memory…

#49

Lucky,

Thank you for the compliment. You’re right, English is not my primary language, I do have an aunt and uncle and a bunch in cousins in NY, though and I’m getting my M.A. in English and History, so my English is supposed to be comprehensible. Oh and I spent one summer at a college in Kentucky, a not-so-western state. So, posting in the forum should be a nice way to practice my English! :slight_smile:

It’s cool that you were stationed at Bamberg, that’s like only an hour from where I live. Awesome.

#50

When Johnny recalls the deserter, Dillinger, who killed the baby girl and how ‘the M.I. take care of their own – No matter what.’ He says, ‘We couldn’t allow some sheriff miles away handle it. If it has to be done, a man – a real man – shoots his own dog himself; he doesn’t hire a proxy who may bungle it.’

All I could think of was when Tigh had to take out Ellen. I thought, “Tigh’s a real man” and then realized, “Wait, he’s a frakkin cylon! Boy they know how to frak with your head!”

#51

If anyone is interested in the whole “third lieutenant-has-to-take-command”-subplot, which, as mentioned in the book, is really based on a historical incidence, there’s another book out there built around the exact same premise, it’s called “Midshipman’s Hope.” An officer candidate has to step up when all the other officers are killed in an accident. I quite enjoyed it, it wasn’t exactly Hugo/Nebula-Award kinda stuff, but solid Military SF.

#52

I am essentially a lurker, but I want to recommend a book that I recently read. It reminded me of Heinlein’s early pulp science fiction novels and Starship Troopers in particular. (I have read all of his books many times - I’m a big classic SF fan). The book is Old Man’s War by John Scalzi. It was a Hugo Award nominee for Best Novel in 2006. The publisher’s summary says, “John Perry did two things on his 75th birthday. First, he visited his wife’s grave. Then he joined the army.” The novel isn’t quite up to Heinlein, and it seems to be a knock-off of Starship Troopers, but its the only novel in years that made me come close to feeling like I was reading a new Heinlein manuscript (and boy do I miss that). It is a bit light compared to Heinlein, but it has nearly all of his themes interwoven into a interesting story - politics, philosophy, a little hard SF (e.g., how would a beanstalk work, multiuniverses), life-long love. Instead of being young and earning their franchise, these soldiers enlist to become young. If you like Troopers, you might want to give it a try.

#53

Great sig picture DrWoolard!

#54

Please, please tell me that the person who just called in to the Diane Rheam show on NPR to talk about Starship Troopers and its commentary on online life as it relates to the rise of the internet in politics was a GWC listener/lurker/alpaca! That would make this even more awesome.

#55

Indeed, that would make my day.

#56

A neighbor of mine recomended the Diane Rheam podcast. Do you listen to it Starbuccaneer? Is it good?

P.S. I’m on page 103 of Starship Troopers. Right now I’m enjoying Heilein’s (Rico’s) detailed destricption of the M.I. suit. Cool stuff.

#57

Her show was at its best a few years ago, when my mom turned me on to it. She’s very much an elder stateswoman of highbrow political talk radio- sometimes it’s frustrating that she speaks very slowly and takes a while to formulate her questions, but she’s a sharp interviewer and the discussions are always good. I’d recommend her.

As to Starship Troopers, I think I’m going to have to bump that up my list.

#58

Ok gang…I just finished reading the book for the first time and here are my thoughts:

  1. What is all the fuss about? I can understand in the context of the time (50s - 60s) that it would not be a popular idea to glorify war and armed service…but controversial?

  2. Endorsement of fascism? Their government is freely elected, they have freedom of speech, freedom of the press…Heinlein’s ‘crime’ is the thought that true citizenship is earned through work, social responsibility and sacrifice. I have a hard time disputing this as an interesting idea.

  3. Powered suits = Awesome. Why did they not use this idea in the movie? What a frakking crime!

Overall, a good book. I can see this as being an incredibly innovative for its time. I think a little bit of the film’s juice is lost due to the fact that aspects of this science-fiction have become reality. None the less the image of a platoon of armored infantry covering 600 square miles and able to leap miles at a time is an amazing image. I personally enjoyed the classroom sections as being thought provoking. Sure, they were a vehicle for Heinlein to express his opinion, but give me a strong opinion anyday to react to.

I feel that Ender’s Game is a superior book to this one. I am not sure I would recommend it to others unless they were science fiction fans. I am able to recommend Ender’s Game to anyone, Starship Troopers feels like a novel best suited for a certain percentage of the population.

#59

The biggest reason for the differences is that the director of the movie disagreed with the veteran run government (as well as the concept of war) and wanted to make a satire on what he felt were “American ideals.” He has been publicly quoted as saying that he made the movie to ridicule his idea of what Americans like.

I agree with the comradery statement, but Heinlein really did believe the lines about only someone who has sacrificed their future for the good of others can truly decide for the good of the community. He felt that a society should have comradery in and outside of the military and that the veteran leadership was his way of coming up with a solution. Granted there were some facist overtones in his described government, but not like any real world examples nor to the extent that his critics claim.

#60

Disagree with Starship Troopers as a Utopia. A Utopian society by definition is an ideal society where advances towards peace have finished. Several of the books someone listed earlier would fit in the “in between” or “Both” category. A Distopian society would be a degrading society.

One of the things that “works” in SST in my opinion is that the government is admitedly not ideal (you see veiled comments by several of the characters - even Rico’s teacher hints at this), but it is a government that allowed them to reverse the process of a degrading society.

It’s about getting to a state where crime is rampant that the lives and safety of innocents cannot be guaranteed ever. It’s about coming to a difficult decision and what you will do when confronted with that choice.

It’s also a coming of age story (ideal as a lesson which is why it’s on the Commandant’s Reading list - not limited to OCS).