Tory was acting out of self preservation so i think that makes her slightly less douchey. Gaeta is acting out of spite. He claims that it is for the greater good but i truly think its more out of anger.
I agree. He’s a racist who is taking out all of his guilt and self loathing on others. His interest isn’t in the “good” of the fleet - just it sticking it to the cylons.
I was debating this a lot, but I finally voted for Gaeta, even though I’m not sure “douche” accurately describes his character, at least where my definition of the term is concerned. I usually reserve that kind of language for people in commercials (notably that TGIFriday’s spiky-blonde-haired idiot, or pretty much any actor in an infomercial who couldn’t tie their shoes without somehow falling into traffic before they got whatever plastic piece of junk that now helps them to be more successful).
But I digress, I voted for Gaeta because just thinking about what a crotchety bigot he has become just really incensed me. The moment that really got to me was when he started whining about the treatment of cylons in med bay - especially when it came to Nicky. I mean, really? Have you lost so much compassion that you don’t think your itchy stump can wait a few minutes so that they can examine the small child who is peeing blood?! Even Cally decided to save Nicky from swimming in space in the end, even though it basically cost her her life - and up until now I’d be hard-pressed to think up another character in the fleet whose hatred for cylons was as absolute (with the exception maybe of the late Lt. Thorne).
Tory was also a very close front-runner. But it’s been sometime since we’ve seen her do much of anything. I’m also betting that Tory will get what’s coming to her if not by the hands of Tyrol, but by her own nature. Maybe something along the lines of Cavil catches up with the fleet and she decides that it will probably improve her cylon status/ensure her safety if she starts sleeping with Cavil. shiver
are you really a bigot for thinking that machines are going to act in the manner that thery are programmed. ( oh and have consitantly acted for they last 60 years of their lives)
I know that the skinjobs look and act like a race of beings. We find ourselves often hateing the person who is prrejudiced against Athena or Helo.
But take into account, they people that are prejudiced against Helo are correct! He DID betray the human race to protect the Cylons. And Skinjobs WERE created ( by their own admission) to infiltrate and betray humans. They aren’t a race ( even if they call themselves one) they are a model of machines ( as far as they claim and humans belive. So Gaeta isn’t a bigot, he’s a good officer who see’s the reality and isn’t buying all the Star Trek style feldercarb that beggining to seep into the Adama/Roslin/Tigh/Starbuck/Helo click.
I will concede that “bigot” is rather strong language for all its social/cultural connotations, even though by definition it is technically accurate (n. One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. ). And point of interest, it actually is my opinion that cylons are more than just machines. I think I have seen enough evidence between cylons of different models, as well as of the same model, making independent and personal decisions to make me at least judge them as individuals, not as a single entity. Although, without knowing the end of the story, I also realize that any judgments I’ve made so far are very premature at best. BSG has always had a way of surprising me. 
You know, I totally understand that Gaeta has been through a lot. He’s be craaaaapped on by many a Cylon, not to mention Starbuck. He went through this radical transformation of being a “by the book” type guy to plotting against his own fleet due to the events that happened to him (though I’m STILL not sure why this affected his hair so adversely). I also understand that he doesn’t feel like he’s being heard by his commanding officers.
But while I can understand what brought him to this point, I just can’t agree with his actions (or his hair). It’s been mentioned earlier in this thread that he believes the only good Cylon is a dead Cylon and this is the problem. We see this all the time in society today in the guise of reverse racism or what have you. He’s not looking at the big picture. He’s very much colored by his own experiences and grievances and this is affecting his ability to assess the situation justly.
Tory is just plain big E-Evil (with nice hair), so I can’t really dub her the most douchilicious.
After reading RDM’s interview about this episode on Mo Ryan’s blog over at Chicago Tribune, I understand t he timing on Cally’s pregnancy a lot better than how it was presented in the episode itself.
RDM said he basically pictured that Cally slept with Hotdog while her relationship was just really starting with Galen. About 3 weeks later, he proposed impulsively & she said yes. She found out soon after that she was pregnant.
Tory is just plain big E-Evil (with nice hair), so I can’t really dub her the most douchilicious.
I suspect that the writers have something in store regarding Tory that will cause “us” to feel far more ambivalent about her. Either that, or might as well give her a moustache and change her name to Snidely Whiplash.
WE may believe that the cylons are more than machines, but the colonials believe that they are just machines, and in a few cases the cylons even refer to themselves as haveing programing, and being models , and so forth.
So in judgeing morality, we can only really judege the colonials based on the information that they have.
Also, the Helo/Sharon baby. Maybe the cylons built a biological constrct that can procreate… it still makes them artificial. That pregnancy could have been placed in sharon by cylon scientists blended with Helo’s DNA. The security clearance on this could have been beyond the average skinjob to know anything about, we just don’t know. Think about how many of us were trying to think about Chief’s baby until revelations were laid at our feet. We just don’t know.
I guess I am applying real world ( aka these things , by definition aren’t living because they are the result of science and not nature) beliefs to a sci-fi series.
If I were watching Star Trek… I would say that rapeing Data is wrong. Because the concept of truely sentient machines is accepted in that reality. In BSG I do not accept them as truely sentient. I just believe that they believe that they are. ( I also believe that the final 5 are a different race and may be actualy sentient minds from liveing beings placed in construct bodies).
And “they” killed 50,000,000,000 humans. That’s a serious day’s work. That includes at least one, and likely several, humans to whom every survivor in The Fleet was close. Really close.
And, dare I say it, what The Cylons attempted to do was “exterminate” the human race (talk about ethnic cleasing, how about species cleansing) and that still may happen (assuming that humans are not really Cylons). If that is to be “overlooked” and deals made with the enemy, the only (amazingly ironic) reason for so doing is continued survival. That’s it. No can’t we get along, co-exist, etc. - we need to deal with them to survive. Whatever it takes - survive.
If some in The Fleet simply cannot buy into that (the "if we’re going to survive, it will be on our own terms), it is certainly understandable (and believable). But, if you are a “leader” (accidental, self appointed or whatever) and are convinced that the nay sayers are wrong - get them out of the way. (Short of death - still need as many humans as possible “to start making babies”. So far that is not going very well.)
Me - I’ve crossed the Rubicon. The leaders (those with the guns) of the less than 40,000 humans left should do whatever it takes to survive. If that means throwing out the rule book and “civil rights” (whatever those may be in a time of all out, total war) so be it. Elections, The Quorum, freedom of speech, religion, you name it will be tolerated unless any get in the way of survival. If any do - kiss 'em good bye.
Thoughts?
(p.s. - And the S7’s weren’t above some torture now and then too. But, I still do not know where/how/why the FF figure into all this.)
Sentience = life in many books, and I must say it does in mine. And since sentience means independent thought, which no one can deny that the Cylons have, you can’t be against their whole race without being a racist or bigot. To be sure, they’ve allied together for some horrific things, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t regret and repent, or even that they’ll do it again.
I also think the Fleet has had plenty of examples of Cylons behaving independently—Gaeta has only the flimsiest of excuses.
See, I can’t buy the “leeway” argument (though I do see where you guys are coming from). It’s too much eye for an eye for me, and if I were to play that game, there are plenty of other things Gaeta has done (mostly related to Baltar) that are pretty wrong.
Agreed.
I know there’s another thread where we go more into this - but I have to disagree with you. The whole cylon “arc” and the cylon civil war is predicated on breaking the programming - seeking out the final five, giving up resurrection, etc. While one might see that Gaeta has reasons (though one might not buy them) for reacting the way he does, as a viewer who does have the information we do, I think we can’t call that anything but racist or bigoted, just as Cavil is racist against the humans.
I’m with you on this in the context of the show, OT. The problem for me is that I see Zarek as a me-centered pragmatist who would lead the fleet to its destruction, and Gaeta as a hateful bigot who is willing to betray the trust of his friends, lover, associates in order to get revenge. And that’s just wrong.
I’m with you on this in the context of the show, OT. The problem for me is that I see Zarek as a me-centered pragmatist who would lead the fleet to its destruction, and Gaeta as a hateful bigot who is willing to betray the trust of his friends, lover, associates in order to get revenge. And that’s just wrong.
Check out the “50,000,000,000 dead” thread. Just because I understand Gaeta doesn’t mean he should be tolerated. Off with his head! (Or, given one of the concessions to civilization - lock him up and throw away the key - at least for the foreseeable future.)
Don’t get me started on Zarek. What is one positive thing that he has done to save the species (that wasn’t reversing something he had helped get started) since the attack? One.
The only thing Zarek has done positivly is champion the cause of eqality and democracy and speak against dictatorships and tiranical rule.
It was HIS upriseing that made Adma and Rosylyn accept a civilian government beyond the fellow passengers of Colonial one. Prior to the prisoner upriseing… they really didn’t have a governemtn at all. Rosylyn claimed to be the president and the captains of ships agreed to listen to her.
As for RoDama ( that’s right that’s what I call them now) An arguement is made by every dictatorship and tyrant as to why their actions are for the greater good. Adama and Rosylyn are no different than Franco or Lincoln in that regaurd. Leaders who suspend civil rights for their vison of the common good. ( I wont go to the big three of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao… just because they aren’t that far gone)
I know Zarek wants power. I know that he will do bad things to get it. But, when push came to shove… he put his but right in the sling on new caprica… and now that he IS the VP he is bucking the system to do what’s right.
He isn’t as nice and touchy feely as Duala or Billy.
He was great on new Caprica - after he paved the way for Baltar to get elected and cravenly decide to settle there.
Instead of trying to steal the election, Roslin should have declared martial law and let Adama take things into his own hands. It would have saved about 10,000 lives (aka 25% of the human species).
RDM does love the irony, eh?
I wonder: is there such a thing as a Cylon non-combatant?
Me - I’ve crossed the Rubicon. The leaders (those with the guns) of the less than 40,000 humans left should do whatever it takes to survive. If that means throwing out the rule book and “civil rights” (whatever those may be in a time of all out, total war) so be it. Elections, The Quorum, freedom of speech, religion, you name it will be tolerated unless any get in the way of survival. If any do - kiss 'em good bye.
This brings me back to Tyrol’s question to Roslin in “Dirty Hands” about whether the government should essentially force kids to inherit jobs from their parents if the Colonies are going to be living as the Rag-Tag Fleet for ten or twenty years. I think the martial law argument only works if everyone sees martial law and the setup of the Fleet itself as a lacuna, as if civilization is being put in cold-storage for a little while, to be thawed out and put back into action whenever they find a home. Now that they have absolutely no idea where they’re going, I would think that would be a much harder sell. If the Fleet is it–if you’re going to be living in metal tubes for the rest of your life, and your kids probably are, too–I don’t know if you could sustain the idea of martial law for an indefinite period then. It’s an emergency measure, and they probably should’ve gone into martial law mode when Earth turned out to be crap and Roslin checked out, but I’m not sure one could or should make it last, even if they’ve been living and will continue to be living in a very emergency-like state for many years.
Spacing Cally is one thing. Knocking Cally out and then waiting until Cally wakes up to space her so you can see the abject terror on her face as she flies out the airlock is a whole 'nother level of douche.
I loved how Mo Ryan pointed out the “what terrible, awful, really bad thing should we do to Cally this week” trend on BSG. It’s good to see RDM defending Cally on that, too.
Rim-shot, big laugh, applause, applause, applause!
After re-watching, I see the difference between Kara attacking Gaeta in the mess and Gaeta attacking Kara. Kara legitimately thought Gaeta was a collaborator, even though her main reason was just lashing out because she was angry at everyone and Gaeta was an easy target. Gaeta went after Kara on pretty unfair grounds–not calling her on the Demetrius, or on her Earth GPS-sense leading them to a burnt-out cinder, or even the Circle (which, though late, I would’ve probably still found appropriate); instead, he was driving the knife in about Sam being a Cylon, which was something beyond Kara’s control. And, ironically as we know from the episodes, Gaeta is not a stranger himself to “sleeping with the enemy.”
Yeah, “amusing” was the wrong word for me to use–more like “interesting.” (okay, I guess I still found “I guess a pity frak is out of the question, then,” and “half-kicks” pretty amusing, but anyway…) I get where you’re coming from. I wanted to reach through the TV, take him by the shoulders, and shake some sense into him, and I’ve had that impulse many, many times with Starbuck and the others, too, but I can’t wait to see the havoc it’s going to cause.
When did Gaeta say that? Yeah, he snarkily called them toasters when they were receiving more attention in sickbay than he was, but I think his argument for the most part has been it’s simply not a good idea to trust the Cylons to board EVERY CIVILIAN SHIP IN THE FLEET to install their technology. Or at the very least, that those civilian ships should be given a good explanation for the plan, or a say in whether or not they want said boarding.
All of us in TV Land think Adama’s plan is a good one because we have the omniscient view of the audience. We’ve been able to hang out behind the closed doors of power, and in many occasions, get into the heads of these characters. But your average Joe schlepping tylium for the past three or four years doesn’t have a clue about anything in the world except the tin can he’s been stuck in. Families on the other civilian ships don’t get to be flies on the wall of Colonial One, or experience the visions and prophecies that seem to be guiding the people in power. All they know is that their homes got destroyed by the Cylons, and now after years of running from them, they’ve found a wasteland instead of a promised land, and TPTB are telling them it’s time to ally with their former mass-murderers-oppressors.
Could Adama and Roslin at least take a sec to explain to their people why this has to be done? When it’s all: “We must save humanity” they seem to like their fellow humans. But when it comes down to actually dealing with the people they’re trying to save, they treat them, their feelings, and opinions like scum.
All Gaeta’s doing is pulling the emergency brake and telling them it’s not okay to do that. He’s not advocating genocide, just perspective.
Rimshot. Big laugh. Applause, applause, applause. 
(Whoops, Kappa beat me to it. Is RSBLAAA the new LOL?)
Good points guys. Rage is getting the better of him and, as we shell soon see, many others. The disappointment in Earth’s state is going to be focused on the leadership and it’s going to be ugly for spite’s sake.