To Be Or Not To Be - morose that is the question

Television, Movies Games and Books BSG-2003
#1

I haven’t had much to say lately - at least by my standards - because I’m depressed by the last 2 episodes and what they may portend for the windup. Now, before some of you unleash dogs from Hell on me, let me once again state that, if I was talented enough to come up with one episode that was 10% as good as what the BSG creative types have presented for years, I’d be in Hollywood sporting pretty hair and with a starlet (do they still have those?) on each arm.

Here are my random thoughts:

  1. Two weeks ago we get a story line dump that throws so much on the wall, I cannot catch half of it.

  2. Then last week when you come right down to it, one thing happens - Tigh and Caprica’s baby dies. And I’m not sure that the writers even know why he was conceived in the first place - just that they had to get rid of him, if Hera was to mean “as much” as foretold.

  3. Then there’s this whole that a petulant Cavil was the real reason (it seems) behind the second Cylon War. PLEASE do not let that be the case - unless there ends up being one hell of a tie in between Cavil and “the jealous god”.

  4. Anders seems to improve as the Tigh/Caprica fetus expires leads to not unwarrated speculation of some sort of a connection, which, if so, seems like a crummy, almost mystical idea - and I hate the concept of mystical ideas entering this show - I like telephones with cords and wires - it was that sort of minutiae that helped make BSG so special.

  5. The idea that Starbuck is Cylon, or a man, or the child of gods know whom - please, no. Her rebirth and destiny have to be something more compelling than that.

  6. That “Daniel” may be alive (and pretty good at tickling the ivories) - again please no. We’ve been told that he is NOT alive. Don’t pull a switcheroo on that one. And we’ve got plenty of Cylons to deal with already in the remaining time.

  7. Some connected with the show have told us that the resolution will be the greatest TV in the history of - well, TV. That sets the bar pretty high.

  8. And then there’s the head characters. Their “meaning” concerns me.

#2

Yeah, wondering where you were. :slight_smile:

I suppose I could unleash the puppies from Michigan. The effect wouldn’t be the same.

5/8. Agreement with you on the Daniel; better he’s not alive, but someone (sorry ‘someone’, I forget who) suggested he could appear to Starbuck as Head Daniel. That might make some sense (moreso, if they ever explain the Head characters).

  1. The Six/Tigh baby seems entirely pointless, unless it’s really tied to Anders and that will really require some explanation. A ressurection tech explanation appears impossible, so WTF? Mysticism is a slippery slope. If they use it once, they’ll use it to explain away other things and IMHO, ruin the tone of this BSG version.

  2. I’m not overly concerned that the war ocurred due to Cavil’s petulance (or pettiness). But this paints him as the most powerful version of his type. The previous Cavils seemed docile by comparison. There should be more back story to this than the data dump episode.

  3. Yeah, right.:rolleyes:

#3

Well, I just have to say, at this point I’m exhausted trying to figure it all out. I want answers and I want them to be mythic, not mundane, that would be disappointing.

But when all is said and done, what a wild ride this has been! Just great!

#4

It has indeed and is indeed.

It’s probably not all that odd to be nervous at this point with an epic (in the truest sense of the word) that has provided so much pleasure and fun.

#5

Kappa came up with the Head piano player, if not Head Daniel idea. And it seems he is on to something.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that my real concerns relate to the head characters. In a “universe” where most everything is “explainable” in our universe (by sci fi standards - you know what I mean) and that fact being one of the real keys to the series greateness, the head characters remain the wild cards for something happening that strikes the wrong chord - with me. But I’ll keep the faith.

#6

Deep breaths, OT, deep breaths.

#7

Good advice. Ohhhhmmmmm. Ohhhhmmmmm.

#8

I’m feeling your pain and, as usual, I love the way you set it out. At this point, I think I would have preferred NOT knowing that the writers had to shove the just figured out ending in and among the history of the show. It’s the downside of the modern “gotta know it all” era, I guess.

Sometimes mystery is better. When you sit down to your morning sausage, you think, “yum”. If you watch the sausage being made, you thing “this thing if made of lips and arses – not so yum!”

Also, no ending to ANY show I have loved has been fully satisfactory. I think it is because I build the show up to such heights that no mortal writer can possibly meet my expectations. I expect that that will be the case here too – product of human limitations.

I am also hoping for no over the top mystical revelations at his point, but the show has had some mystical craaaaap right from the kamala induced beginning. So I think we can expect some more.

I’ve been knocking around the idea that Anders was in mid “organic transfer” and that cylon foetuses are just “meat” without an organic transfer. A type of natural resurrection ship. However, if this is true, then how did Erf become inhabited with millions of cylons? Thus the weakness in my theory. My other theory is that the connection between 6’s baby and Anders was just an unfortunate editing accident.

I’m hoping that it all doesn’t come down to “true love”. I know 6 believes true love is necessary to get pregnant, but gods, please let her be delusional. If the answer is that Hera is a product of true love and this will break the cycle, I will hurl. I am hoping for more.

My guess is that Starbuck meets some head Daniel. If not a head Daniel or the actual Daniel, then some flashback or back story is coming. The writers won’t introduce a key off stage character at this point for no reason. He MUST tie in somehow.

The last two episodes had the feel of being for the purpose of setting up the final run. I hope that is the case and not a true turn about in the style of the show. If I am right, the show is ready for full throttle to the end. Yippie-kay-yay!!!

#9

I totally agree. I’m going to savor these last episodes.
Then as a consolation, I’m doing a marathon of the entire series. Let’s see, how many hours would that take?

#10

The big question of the Head Characters doesn’t bother me so much… I don’t buy any of the mystical explainations forwarded regarding the show, either, so there must be an alternate, “real-world” explaination.

I’ve been thinking that they are some form of “undownloaded” conciousness, that resides in an undestroyed Hub (the Colony, I’m guessing). These UC think (pause) and act (pause) like guardian angels of a sort, leading the main characters to new discoveries and paths. I also think some Colonials are able to “recieve” or tap into this Hub, through some sort of altered mental state, like the Seer that talks to Kara in Maelstrom, and the other one that talks to Deanna in Exodus, which explains why they both knew stuff they couldn’t know (Chamala might be the drug that induces the mental state necessary to tap into this Hub) It provides an explaination for a lot of mystical stuff that goes on… Head Six, Head Leoben, Head Eloisha. And I think it’s a good explaination for Daniel… Daniel’s definitely dead, but his conciousness lives on and is able to communicate with Kara (as Head Leoben, I’m guessing).

So we have these God-like Head characters, that aren’t really gods. Maybe they are the original Lords of Kobol, directors of the Plan? The big hows and whys, I dunno.

#11

To cheer myself up, I’ve been frittering away my disposable income on MST3K DVD’s. My financial rationale is that they have to be better investments than the stock of any major Amercan corporation. (Boy, I had forgotten how simultaneously hilarious and distrubing “Manos: The Hands of Fate” is.)

I think I have decided that Crow is my favorite TV character of all time.

Ohhhhhmmmm. Ohhhhhmmmm.

#12

Oh yeah - and I’m OK with Head Daniel/piano player (I can hear the writers breathing sighs of relief from here). In fact “he” seems inevitable and essential at this point - as sseveral of “you” have written. I am not OK with him being some derivation of Starbuck’s father, because I am not OK with Starbuck being some sort of a Cylon. (Now I can hear RDM shouting "Get me rewrite or OT ain’t gonna be happy!!!)

#13

Actually, I like Anthony Bourdain and Andrew Zimmern on Travel Channel… lips and arses can be pretty tasty. :smiley:

I like this idea… a lot. The light he saw looked like the proverbial “white light” before death, but more importantly looked like the light from the Opera House.

I will be keeping a specially-designated bucket next to my chair for that possibility.

#14

I’ve felt the same way, OT. In a post I later scrapped I compared BSG to some of my favorite childhood RPG’s, like Phantasy Star IV, insofar as the beginning is somewhat limited but is adventurous and fun, but eventually you meet ethereal Big Bads and double-crosses and the plot just kind of becomes loose and large, instead of small and tightly-wound, and I’m left with something that is very different from what I enjoyed so much in the beginning, with varying degrees of satisfaction on my end. I’ve never understood why half the cast is Cylon; the final five twist in particular left a sour taste in my mouth because it took away from Tyrol and made Tory seem like nothing more than a plant to serve the plot without her own real motivation, though at least now she’s like the anti-Cavil in that she LOVES being a machine.

I know you can’t plan everything in a world (“in a world…”)where your show can get canceled without notice, but in trying to jury-rig this Cylon mythology into the overall plot it seems that things have become messy and complicated when I don’t think they need to be. I know that Season 4.5 seemed to start off terrible slow, but then “The Oath” kicked in and we were excited, except next episode everything is neatly wrapped up again, our favorite characters are no worse for the wear, and all we know is that two interesting characters have been dealt with to lean out the rest of the series (a process that has really kicked into gear this half-season).

Except we then spend two episodes almost entirely on Cylon drama, and I wonder where this awesome show about humanity’s will to survive (and bicker while doing so) has gone. I know you can’t keep the chase/pursuit excitement up for four whole seasons, but I can’t help but feel like the focus is on the wrong things during a time when it’s critical to put it where it should be. We don’t see anything about mutineer punishment anywhere (only vaguely alluded to in the episodes but referred to directly by RDM in the podcast), but instead are shown a love triangle that ultimately just kills off another potential character before they complicate the ending. Where’s the military in my space military show? I’m not saying the Cyangle wasn’t interesting, but it took up a very large portion of the episode when i liked that more than two arcs could cut through any episode at a given time and be given equal time and importance.

I am sure the finale components will be wonderful and thrilling, but I expected a more exciting build-up to it. If I didn’t know already I’d assume the show’s end is nowhere in sight, since Starbuck, Lee, and other favorites have had five minutes of air time in two weeks’ worth of episodes, Adama brushes his teeth and talks about using the toilet, Roslin crosses her arms and sternly condescends, and most other humans of importance are dead or imprisoned. Helo was hurt terribly weeks ago and I still have no idea what’s up with him and his family. Instead, I know that Cylons spend A LOT of time in sickbay bothering Anders’ comatose body.

The general lack of BSG talk in the GWC podcast, I think, is indicative of this episode’s lack of excitement. This is the final stretch, guys. I love the show and will own and watch all of it on DVD. I don’t HATE this episode or the recent episodes at all. But this is not what I was hoping for as the show wrapped up, and now I’m worried that the ending won’t address the characters I’ve come to care the most about. Hopefully they’re trying to tie up Cylon drama so we can get back to the greater conflict and the greater characters that populate it, and ultimately that’s where I put my faith, though it is admittedly not as unwavering as it once was.

If I didn’t like the show, then I wouldn’t say anything, but I want it to be great every week, which is why I view it in a more critical light than other shows. Much like OT, it’s hard to be excited about a show when an average episode is one of the last we’ll ever see… I want to see this show firing on all cylinders like it did during the miniseires, during the Cylon occupation at New Caprica, like it was just a few weeks ago.

OT, I’m right there with you, from recent events to my worries about plotline resolution. My fingers are crossed we get what the best of the show has taught us to expect, not what the worst we fear could come.

#15

I have to say, the last two episodes were really interesting for me. I’ve always loved the ones that are cylon-centric, and I’m not heavily invested in “rational” or “scientific” explanations for everything.

That said, I do hope that Daniel doesn’t appear. I think that would be jarring. Besides which, if he’s gone, he’s gone - and if he’s not, then Ellen’s pain in losing him is kind of not as profound.

OT, I get where you’re coming from. I guess this goes back to (what, last summer?) the discussions about divine intervention or not, and there are a lot of people on this forum that are fine with divine intervention, characters, etc as an explanation as well as a lot who are really not going to be satisfied with something that isn’t what they think is rational. Sadly I think this means that some of us are going to be (inevitably) disappointed, but at this point - I have no idea how things are going to end, and I’m fascinated to see how they get there.

I’m not sure I get what you’re saying here - you don’t buy the mystical explanations (I disagree, but that’s the cool thing, that so many points of view are possible with this material), but then are talking about the Lords of Kobol, the Plan, etc? Would you mind explaining again?

Though it might just be me :wink: I’ve fried my brain the past week or so writing like a crazed demon… and have a satisfactorily thick (when printed out) paper to show for it

#16

I will be keeping a specially-designated bucket next to my chair for that possibility.

It’s a real concern. She may not be the product of true love (as opposed to all those other kinds of love), but she may have the wings of an angel.

How can she not be what breaks the cycle? There’s three possibilities short of total annilihation, right (or just humans or “pure” Cylons surviving - in which case Hera is dead meat)?

  1. The cycle starts again with Cavil “winning” (and Hera being killed “by” him - no “cross breeds” welcom, thank you very much) AND a segregated S7 (as the Lords/gods) and human (subservient) society cranks up again on the next Kobol. Eventually humans createe FF type Cylons, etc. Cycle intact.

  2. The cycle is broken (Cavil loses) and humans and rebel Cylons and FF Cylons bravely face the future together as one (with Hera the first of etc). Cycle broken.

  3. The wild card (in other words, this would really take guts for the writers) - Cavil and lots of others buy the farm and the few surviving humans and Cylons realize they are simply incompatible and go their separate ways to try and start over and hope for the best. Hera placed in a convent. Cycle - unknown.

#17

Regarding Daniel, do we really know he’s dead? We know his copies were poisoned while maturing, but I didn’t realize it had been stated that he was gone for certain. Regardless, I think he’s coming back. Starbuck is playing piano with some new young man in that preview. Wouldn’t you say it’s going to be him, if only in a dream?

Regarding mundane vs mystical explanations. I am ok with mystical. I know some people don’t want the writers to ask us to go there. But I think they have been all along (maybe that’s about to change though). I wouldn’t mind them asking us to accept a nonphysical force at play. It might make us look at the supernatural as something natural but not understood. Personally I love that kind of thing. Why is Roslin sharing dreams with Cylons by the way? That’s going to be an interesting explanation.

I don’t know about Hera in a convent, but everything else in that scenario seems totally possible to me.

#18

This what I hope for.

#19

That’s for sure… best to enjoy the ride.

Sure… I think that the mystical elements of the show have a rational explanation… what the Colonials and Cylons think of as God can be attributable to more advanced technology.

One of the more common themes in Scifi is the question of How Do you Know When It’s God? When you encounter a concept/idea/event that clearly exists, but defies the laws of nature as you understand them, how do you react? Usually there are two reactions: You can say, “It’s a miracle”, and attribute the concept to the supernatural; or you can question and attempt to explore further, until you fully understand this unexplainable thing you’ve encountered… Star Trek (RDM’s original play-pen) explores this idea a lot, and in scifi, a lot of the time the answer to the question of whether it’s God or not, is that it’s not God; it’s just more advanced technology than you’re capable of understanding, and that appears Godlike to you.

It’s a neat theme, because, really, how do you know when it is God you are dealing with? How do you tell the difference between God and God-like? Is there a difference at all? Is it possible to become a God, if you are advanced enough? It it even desirable? If I do become a God, do I have the right to pass judgement on others beneath me? Fascinating ideas.

The bummer (for me anyway) is that this theme is just vague enough for RDM to let it hang, and not answer it by the finale. I hope he chose to.