Tired of hearing "Picard is more like a real commander"?

Television, Movies Games and Books Star Trek
#1

Picard is NOT more like a real commander than… well anyone.

I always kinda felt Picard was the kinda guy that some nerdy skinny kid would feel was the best they could hope to be. Like the guys that KNEW that they couldn’t be Kirk types kinda copped to the Picard type… cause all you have to do is get good grades and don’t take chances in life… and you could be a Picard type. Stick to a set of priciples ( lame or not) , educate yourself and loose your hair and you can emulate Picard.

Kirk was the guy everyone else wants to be. No normal boy ever dreams of growing up to be skinny, bald, and only getting laid like 3 times in 8 years.
Every boy dreams of being a good looking stud, that can whip anyone in a fight, and get any girl in the universe. Has a best friend who’s just as cool as he,… and is just the guy that EVERY person in starfleet wants to be friends with.

Notice everyone in the starfleet tends to call Kirk “Jim”. It’s not a lack of respect… he has that thing that is realistic in Military Officer cirlcles.He is a party guy. He is friends with the whole fleet. He is the guy that knows the peopel to know… in other words … he is the leader of the “popular kids” from school. People just want to be Kirks friend.

Now speaking as an Army Warrent Officer, and a person that has worked with and for officers of various branches [and sometimes nations]. The number one quality in a good officer isn’t the decisions they make or even their work ethic. Most officers are professional, and the rules don’t allow for someone to be too much more outstanding in their skills and achievments. In otherwords one captains ability to manuver in battle is about as good as another. They are also about equal in the skills they posses thru training.The thing that can’t be trained that seperates the great from the expected.It this: Do people WANT to be led by them? That’s the most important skill… it doesn’t need to be a popularity contest solely… but it is one. Promotions ane carreers are, and always have been managed that way.

Picard gets the respect… he is the Captain. He is considered a great Captain. But he doesnt have that real world personality that ALL real military officers possess: Kirk’s personality!. Meet any officer in any branch of service. We are educated … but we aren’t quiet studious archeology types. We’re the guys that played baseball, and football, Swim, run track… we’re the captains of those teams as youth, athletes in university…and leaders of men. That’s what Kirk has.

I am not saying Picard’s merits aren’t great… I am saying the writers didn’t understand how this works. So i am not as much disparageing the attributes of Picard… as much as I am bitching at the writers for not giving him the rest of the puzzle. THey made the same mistake with Janeway. The writers only gave them the attributes that are positive while commanding ship missons… but didn’t write them as haveing the personality that realistily leads to that point where they are considered leaders. In other words… Picard’s skill set makes a good captain… but his personality would never have led to him ever getting to be a capatin of leader to prove it.

Here’s where I feel they did it right…and wrong. ( I discount Spock, Worf, Data, and T’pol becuse they don’t realy fit into the equasion, I almost feel that they have “super powers” that get them into the club. In other words if they only had human abilitys, brain power, and their same awkward personalities they would have been blackballed from the “club” . I have seen it happen a hundred times in the real world of the military.

Kirk, Riker, Uhura, Tom Paris, Laforge, Sulu, Sisko, Jadzia Dax, Archer, Trip, Bashir and Kim ( believe it or not,… just as young officers), Troi, Beverly, are all written often as haveing this characterization.

These leaders were shown as proficiant… but lacked the full personality. Jayneway, Picard, Chakotay ( most of the series, but I suspect that pre-maqui Chakotay might have been a different guy that we never saw. Chakotay acts like an NCO… not an officer), Kira ( for the first few seasons… they fix her later , I feel),

Some folks like Ezri, Yoshi, Travis, Reed, Miles Obrien ( actualy was an NCO so this is a complement to the writers), Seven, Checkov, don’t really act like officers at all… they act like NCO’s. Like they enlisted… do their duty, are subject matter experts… but should NEVER be commanders of anything more than 40-50 people ( Yes I know Ezri is a captain in the books, but that character is not written ANYTHING like the character from Ds9)

As always … this is just my proffesional opinion and “Welcome to Cofe Talk… discuss!”
An officer is the guy that when you throw a party… you couldn’t imagine it’s sucess if he didnt’ show up.

#2

Interesting post. I’ll probably have more to say about it once it has more time to sink in, but I’d like to make a point about Ezri.

We never really got to meet Ezri Tigan. When we meet Ezri, she’s just been joined without the training Trill who are joined usually have. During the one season she was in, she was trying to rediscover who she really is. My guess is that before the joining, she probably would have fallen into the same category as Harry Kim.

#3

Well “old ezri” in the books is a great character. She really is just a non-sexualized Jadzia. It’s like the auhors would like to pretend that she jsut IS Jadzia. I feel like it seems to be that Jadzia always talked about Kurzon… Ezri always talks about Jadzia.

That character really didn’t get done any kind of justice on the show. I felt she was mostly there for the other people in Dax’s life. Aside from the Vulcan serial killer epiisode… it’s all about her as she relates to the people that miss Jadzia. She is usually a bumbling mess. I feel it probably mirrors the actress’s feeling on being a newbie as well.

As for her command abilities… She said herself in the ds9 episodes that she really didn’t have any kind of thoughts on command.

In the real world, medical personel are given Officer rank more becuase of Education than position. Like every nurse in the Army outranks every Platoon Sgt or Sgt Major. Most nurse’s with NO military leadership xp outrank Company commanders and and Platoon Leaders. It’s really a rank so that they can pay the medical personal a competitive wage.

in Star Trek terms, Bones is a Commander (rank… not role). He outranked Scotty by most sources being a Commander, and Scotty being a Lt. Commander. But Scotty was in the chain of command … Bones was not. So Scotty could tell bones where to stick it, even thou he outranked him.

Crusher chose to become command certified ( the Star Trek = to Navy Surface Warefare certification) This means that she CAN act as her rank and stand watch and take command. HOWEVER this is a “First Officer’s at will” position and not a part of her actual job. meaning that Riker chooses to let her sit a watch and earn qualifications… but can shut her out and say " get your ass to sickbay" if he were so inclined.

Ezri, when introduced, was a medical branch officer that fit the catagory of rank for job. Just like our medical officers… she took the minimal training in command and officers skills. So she can use a phaser, trcorder and pilot a starship… but she is NEVER expected to do more in terms of leadership than eventualy maybe lead a department on a starbase that has multipe coucilers. (Remeber she isn’t a Syc doc… jsut a therypst) During the show… she really is just doing that.

But i believe she is a “super character” meaning a character that’s resume is superceded by her role as a main cast member and friend and family member to the stars. She doesnt’ show any leadership skills… but the author can assign them to her and it becomes fact.

In the books they tell you that she was all hardened from the last season of ds9 and becomes an ops officer and the Exo of the Defient. Later she get’s her own ship. I like the way they write her in the books. It’s nothing like the show. And your right… if given three or more seasons… that could have been her. So I guess in a long drawn out way… I agree with you.

#4

One of the things RDM wanted to portray with the re-imagined Battlestar was a realistic military feel. He did not like the way Star Trek portrayed the military.

Roddenberry felt Star Trek followed the military tradition but it was a more “evolved” humanity. He created Kirk to be Horatio Hornblower. Picard was created to be the perfect administrator. The Next Generation, with it’s conference room, is more like an office building than a military vessel.

That being said, Picard is much older than Kirk. We’ve seen some of his youth. He was rambunctious and rebellious. He was quite brazen and people followed him. Picard was meant to represent a wiser, older captain.

I always kinda felt Picard was the kinda guy that some nerdy skinny kid would feel was the best they could hope to be.

Actually, Gary Mitchell referred to Kirk as a walking stack of books. Kirk was the bookworm, part of the reason he was the youngest captain to serve in Starfleet.

Starfleet, IMO, is not a military. It is an organization. It doesn’t just defend and protect. It’s main purpose is exploration. From what I hear (I haven’t watched much of the show), Stargate does a better job portraying the military.

As far as command, I think both Picard and Kirk have a command presence. They are decisive and confident. They encourage those around them to be their best, they expect it. They demand respect and do not tolerant any disrespect of their postion.

#5

Kirk’s the friend you want, Picard is the dad you want. Kirk’s the one I’d want if I was more experienced, but Picard is the one I’d want to show me how to get there. The dynamic is different but the result is the same: inspiration.

#6

Yeah that was a line spoken once in the second pilot. From that time on… He acted like the frontman to a rock band, cowboy, captain of the football team, homecomeing king, Bill Kilgore ( Appocalypse Now), Starbuck, and every guy that you want to be. Besides… the line just means that in addition to being a stud… he was also a bookworm.

As for starfleet being a military… It is in TOS, By definition it is in TNG, but the great hippy in the sky didn’t want it to be. As soon as he passed the writers started fixing the lame peace crap. DS9 is all about how Roddenberrys vision doesnt work… and it almost cost them the Alpha Quadrant.

But I realy wansn’t trying to open a Picard VS kirk debate… Just trying to put the leaders in perspective with actual leaders. ( I guess really poining out what the writers do not know about real combat leaders.

Sisko is a a good example of a realistic officer type. He and Archer are probably the closest to real world comanders… with Kirk being the one of the civil war Custer, or young Macarthur EXTREME over achiever types ( macarthur 1900-1919… not the older Mac).

Plus remeber… realistic isn’t always entertaining. Yes NO commander, british or otherwise has Picads personality… but he does make for good stories.

#7

They may have realized that deficiency in Picard with this episode to color him different.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tapestry_%28episode%29

#8

Great notes!

As 'Talos said, I think young Picard was more of an athlete/hellraiser. And the proper British (I know, he’s supposed to be French) affectations didn’t develop until earlier.

#9

I’ve read most of the Stargazer novels, and yeah, Picard is at different stage of his life as the Captain of the Stargazer. More of a captain/warrior in the style of Kirk.

Ron Moore is of course, deep, in the world of TNG being a producer and writer on the show for so long.
Ron Moore has mentioned TNG and Star Trek in general on his BSG podcast commentaries, and has interesting insights about Star Trek.
Star Trek, as he puts it, is not realistic and was never intended to be realistic. It’s a heightened reality, an idealized reality. In many way Picard is a perfect exemplification of that.
He’s intelligent, decisive, well mannered. He’s good in a flight. But he’s very well read. He’s got an extreme sense of morality and has proven his willingness to die to do the right. He appreciates science, culture, history all that kind stuff.

There’s no human being that could realistically have all those traits. He’s an idealized person in an idealized show.

A show like that probably wouldn’t succeed on TV today, because audiences have developed a taste for realism and “warts and all” shows—in this age of post BSG, Sopranos, etc. (And I’m saying that even though as you my have heard, I’m a Trek megafan,…nay…THE Trek Megafan.)

#10

Thank you - you nailed it. Poetry!

Kirk and Picard appeal to two different parts of me. Both Captains are BDMs.
(And so is Mal)

#11

Your dead on! This is the only episode that shows him have the character of an officer. And it points out who he really is.( not a captain… just an officer, about like Harry Kim). You guys are dead on… the Picard character works as a character. I like him… I don’t hold it against him for not being the Star Trek I wanted… I am, thankful for the star trek we got. TNG came about when ST movies were considered a blessing and were getting worse with each outing.

BTW … they had to write novels to make him look officer like!

I think the the anti-picardism is more about who he isn’t… than who he is.
I am not slaming Picard. Saying he has none of the prerequisites of real life officers… is not be saying he’s Neelix.

I have jsut been hearing trek fans and Picard appoligists stateing for YEARS that Picard is the more realistic captain. And I always laugh… becuase it’s normally a very smart, comic book collector, well read person, with degree in literature or fine arts… who works in a call center. It has never been anyone who has been in the military, combat, or who has an active duty father or mother who is a (non medical) officer. [ I am not saying these things are bad things, they are my friends, … I am just describing like 5 people I know that have tried to shove that opinion in my face, and BTW I am the only officer they have ever met [other than the washed up ROTC teacher from High school]

Becuause the media doesnt really portray the real thing often… most people don’t feel that there something to compare. Away from Star Trek… you know fit’s the mold

Bill Kilgore… You know

As for the Trek is supposed to be unrealistic… well here is the question… How come they have gotten it right SO MANY TIMES?

Kirk, Archer, Sisko, Scotty, Sulu, Riker, Trip, Geordi, Tom Paris is one of the best examples [ criminal record doesnt discriminate… many officers have a few strikes].

Picard is a great character. I enjoy him. But he is the Captain becuae the writers say so. He leads because he is already your boss. He doesnt exibit ANY characteristics in a group that makes you think he is the natural leader. his talents and atributes are shared by, like everyone in Starfleet we have ever seen. He’s quite awkward actually. He just has the job.

#12

And who’s fault is this. The writers of course. It wasn’t until Yesterdays Enterprise that we saw a more Decisive Picard. He didn’t become a more Commanding character until the movies. Those being First Contact and Nemesis. I don’t count Generations as he was still the same written character.

#13

comprehensive as hell.
The only thing i can think to add would be that Kirk was the Captain of a warship. Say what you will, he fought EVERYTHING and almost never “talked it out.” the Enterprise in TOS was a vessel of war and conquest.
“explore strange new worlds, dominate them, then move on”- isnt entirely innaccurate.

TNG however changed the model. Enterprise D is much more of an exploration and diplomatic vessel. Yes it can detach the saucer section and become more of a war vessel, but only does so like twice for such a purpose.

I want Kirk leading my warship.
I want Picard leading my exploration and diplomacy flagship.

just my 2 cents :stuck_out_tongue:

#14

That is my whole point. These people [writers] have never met a real leader. They don’t know what makes them tick. They don’t know what their actual attributes are… they jsut know what attributes they want their character to have. They knkow the kinda leader that they would like to work for [aka fictional leaders that realy don’t and never have existed]. Now I know that someone might say that this is a fictional show… and they can “write” that: in the future people are lead with different attributes. The problem is basic human psychology. Leadership hasn’t really changed for years. Are we to go so far as to believe that in one generation humans changed their whole psycology?

Picard could have been accurate with ALL of his attributes… they just needed to make him look like a natural leader. He could have been a bookworm, and nice, and talk his way out of problems… but he should have played cards with at least Will, data, and Beverly. He should have not been awkwward around people. He should have been a proper mentor to Wesley

There is a possible explanation (beyond writer failure) for Picards character flaws. Maybe Picards era of Starfleet is the entitlment era? Here goes:

There is a saying in the army that is 100% false. "Leaders aren’t born… they are trainied. " This is the motto or the NCO corp. Why? because anybody can enlist. Do your time and don’t f’ up … they have to give you the promotion to NCO i fyou pass the tests. You don’t have to be a great leader… you have to meet measurable requirements. They send you to training and if you pass the established tests and oral question [ which all have established answers]… you are a leader. There is no real “judgement” involved. This system was invented during peace time of the 70’s in order to make sure the "good ole boy " system gave everyone that was there a shot at promotion [reguardless of merit]. That system gives you MANY MANY NCO’s who aren’t good leaders. The best leaders in the NCO corp want to make more money than 30k and go for officer or warrent… or get out. It’s a poor system. A Picard would strive here. He would do well on the tests and pass the tasks.

A possible excuse is that Peace time Starfleet was the same way. Picard had a lot off skills that would get him promoted. He was in the right place at the right time and was able to step up to the plate… in a position that in a real military situation… he wouldn’t have been a player. During all those years of peace… he is one of the only officers to have combat xp.

Also: He did those things… with skill… not leadership. He was well trained and knew how to do a skill. That’s not leadership… that’s being a good worker.

Developing the picard manuver makes him a good Navigator, helmsmen, astrophyisisit and balsey… it’s not Leadership.

It’s not that Kirk could fight that makes him a leader: it’s that he is magnetic. Picard isn’t magnetic, he isn’t flashy… remeber Macarthur became a leader at West Point as a Quarterback… not by winning the spelling B!

#15

I dont think anyone would say that Picard is “the Best” captain.
Im not military, so i dont know a bunch of “real commander”'s
I am pretty sure that a “real commander” doesnt go ashore on every single scouting mission.

“leadership ability” seems to be your primary point, and there is no arguing it.
Kirk has FAR more leadership, charisma, and balls, and that “it” factor. (side note, i would TOTALLY want to be Patric Stewart’s hommie)

Portrayal of what a captain of a HUGE vessel does while on duty, im not sure, but that might be Picard simply for the “stay on the boat and order the folks around” style in which he is written.

#16

Are you postulating that peace is, at its basic level, a myth that can never happen and in imagining a universe with it Roddenberry is in some way causing harm or disservice?

#17

No. I don’t see how a TV show could cause harm in the real world.

I will say that a universe with no violent conflict or at least the threat of it is unrealistic, even for science fiction and would make for a boreing as hell show. Especially given that the TOS was anything but a peaceful universe. As a matter of fact it’s conflict that made that show great. It’s far better to have a bad guy or race than a bad scientific phenomenon or engineering fowl up. THose episodes are great… but should be the minority for entertainment purposes. It’s like haveing Gunssmoke TNG being all about farmers out on the north 40 hopeing their cattle don’t get animal small pox. I am not saying it would be a bad show… it just wouldn’t be Gunsmoke. [ whenever Kirk would say how peaceful the Federation was… he was refering to the fact that humans weren’t killing each other and that the Federation wasn’t forceing it’s self on the little guy… he wasn’t saying they wouldn’t throw down on Romulans, Klingons, or Orions in a heartbeat]

More over:

I AM saying that as a matter of Star Trek cannon… Roddenberry’s TNG Starfleet almost cost them the alpha Quadrant and almost damned the Federation to enslavement.

The Federation had become “peaceful” and hippy ( post Kitomhr ). There was almost no security ( aside from section 31) and the fleet wasn’t ready or organized for war. They had spent 5 years fighting Cardasians and gave up worlds to them! They had 90 year old women as Admirals. ( as a matter of fact Admirals were almost always lame and bad guys!)

In Ds9, The ending of the episode where the Admiral initiates a coup to get the federation ready for the fight against the Dominion, ends with Sisko admiting as much. The Dominion agent states many times that it was Roddenberry’s ideal Federation{no they don’t say Roddenberry’s dream- but you get the point} is why they will be sucessfull and is foolish of us.

The Dominion was later on the verge of busting thru federation lines, federation worlds were being occupied and billions were dieing. Sisko framed the dominon by blowing up a romulan ship and tricking them into joining the Allies. Hence SAVEING the alpha quadrant.

That’s right… an act of unappoligetic terrorism was needed to save the federation. Once that happens the domminion get’s pushed back. ( The breen do a Pearl Harbor on Earth… but once fleet readjusts to fight the breen… the war continues to go well for the federation until it’s over. Sisko’s act is basicaly D-day and Stalingrad (aka the war wasn’t won… but it was jsut a matter of time at that point)

There was no Roddenberry principle that saved the Federation. It was Terrorism, Charisma, Leadership, and Warfare.

( guess that’s why we never say the Enterprise E on the front lines)