The Economics of the Future

Television, Movies Games and Books Star Trek
#1

I’ve been rolling this around in my head for several days. After the conversation on the podcast and it’s continuation in the podcast thread, I’ve gotten to thinking about economics in the 23rd and 24th centuries.

Coming up in First Contact, there’s a great exchange (most of them are) between Lily and Picard.
Lily: “I’ll bet this ship cost a lot of money,”
Picard: “The economics of the future are somewhat different.”

First, I’ll start off by saying that the writers probably haven’t given nearly as much thought to this as the rest of us have, so the world’s not going to crumble if we find a hole somewhere in there, but never-the-less, it’s something I want to look at. Also, I should warn you that I’m a capitalist and as a result, most of what I write will come from that bias.

With the advent of the replicator, it seems like there’s very little reason to have money. We all need to eat and somewhere down the line someone said “I’m willing to give you some of my food, but not on the virtue of you just being alive. I’ll give it to you for something” and thus exchange was born. When the replicator was(is?) created, it seems like the ability to spontaneously create food takes away the necessity for exchange-based-on-survival. We still need energy, but a reaction of matter/anti-matter moderated with Dilithum Crystals seems to supply ample power to everybody/everything. I tend to take that to mean that power is not really a problem either. Still, it must come from somewhere (as must the matter and the anti-matter… for that matter </pun>).

There are numerous examples of people on Earth claiming to not need money, but at the same time, they seem to do things that suggest exchange.

Joseph Sisko runs a restaurant. Does he just make food and serve it to people, or do they pay him somehow? I don’t want to discount the idea of cooking for someone for the sake of doing so. I love doing stuff in the kitchen and experimenting. How do restaurants of the future work?

Generally speaking, I look at the officers in Starfleet and assume that their willingness to do their jobs comes from a fulfillment of doing their work, or from the desire to be somewhere/accomplish some thing. It’s clear that Picard considers himself an explorer, and enjoys that opportunity. Bashir wanted to practice “frontier medicine”.

For work we often give people little pieces of paper that enable them to exchange to others for what they want or need. The paper is not the relevant part. The exchange is. For a ship and a crew to explore, Picard agrees to give diplomatic and other services to Starfleet. Bashir agrees to deal with Starfleet red tape.

Picard has a couple of times where he mentions how humanity is no longer driven by the desire to gain material possessions, but exchange isn’t about the material possesions, it’s about the value which something has to you.

Okay. I’ve rambled enough. Thoughts? Ideas?

#2

There’s been a LOT of stuff ruminated about that. Gene had this vague idea that everyone would just strive to be their best, and not worry about compensation. It’s a really fuzzy idea, and nobody seems to know how to make that at all realistic. The implications of the replicators (and the holodecks) have been hashed out at great detail. It’s hard stuff to wrap your head around, because it eliminates all scarcity, which is the basic motivation for economics.

#3

I can understand joining Starfleet for the adventure, loving cooking so much to want to run a restaurant or becoming a teacher but what always got me was the people who were waiters at 10 forward and the like. It wouldn’t really strike me as a job that you would want to do.

Also somehow I doubt Quark’s bar is free, but the main cast sure do spend a lot of time there and in his holosuits. I was always curious how they paid for it.

#4

One thing that they have always stressed in trek is quality of life.

Sure, they have replicators to see to your needs. But, evidently if you have been around replicators for a while, you can taste the difference between synth-food and real prepared food. Replicated cajun food tastes different to Ben Sisko than homade food. PLUS you only have the option of the same old recipe’s that have been programmed into the database. SO, you can get gravy and biscuits… but not your grandma’s big ole’ cat heads. No flare, no spice of life. OR you get someones custome recipe, which eventualy becomes conventional.

Prior to TNG trek always maintained that people used credits. The first mention to their comunist life was when Riker mentioned that they didn’t use money… but starfleet gave them an allowance for when they were somewhere they needed it.

I don’t know if Risa is a federation planet in TNG or not… but I understood that Risa worked like this, if you have an appointment… you could come and do anything you want for free. (or else every refugee in the verse would be squating there)

I imagine that the federation crew of Ds9 was given a salary to function in Bajoran commerce. I don’t think Dax gambled with imaginary latnum, or had a side job on the local economy in order to raise the GPL. Sisko purchased land on Bajor (or one of it’s moons, I can’t remember) to settle. He used the word “buy”.

So i really think the comunism mentioned by riker in that episode was something that Rodenberry sliped in, and the further writers tried to forget was in there, cause it makes writeing for it kinda hell.

#5

Maybe the waiters and the like are doing that job for the prospect of promotion. Serve time as a red shirt, gain experience, move up the ladder to the more fulfilling gigs… ok maybe not red shirts, but waiters maybe. :wink:

#6

I’m just saying, the G20 are looking seriously of the ramifications of using the Special Drawing Rights more extensively.

Meanwhile, here in Asia, China is pushing for their Chinese Yuan (or renminbi, NOT to be confused with the Japanese Yen) to be a counter balance to the US dollar as a hard-currency.

Closer to home, our South-East Asian delegates are toying more seriously with the idea of the ASEAN dollar.

#7

The way I’ve always imagined it is this: Earth and most of the Federation have no money within their societies because of replicator technology. Economies of other worlds, like Ferenginar, are based upon substances that cannot be replicated, like latinum and dilithium, as they are limited commodities. Since we need dilithium to power ships and such, we mine it and other such precious resources to maintain trade with planets and cultures that have such economies. Like there might be a deal with Risa, which is a Federation world but may have money of some wort, that Starfleet Officers get to go there free in exchange for non-replicatable resources and military protection. There are many ways it might work. But I think on Earth it’s as simple as people pursue only those jobs they really want to, and most tasks we consider menial or low today are in that time automated. So when you see a waiter or a gardener, groundskeeper, mechanic, or grape grower, this is something they’ve chosen to pursue, rather than something they need or are forced to do to get by.

#8

Ezri dax’s family owns a company. There’s a whole episode about it.They own facilitys, homes, and are concerned with profits. It is also inherited. So there is no hippie reason that these people have a company. It’s not that the kids chose to go into mineing. They inherited wealth. They have posessions.

They are federation citizens.

#9

I can understand how free food for all and no problems with energy can make the need for money seem less… but even if I had a free utility and food bill I would still have to make the mortgage payment on my house.

I like my job and I get a sense of fulfillment, but I don’t do it for that. I do it to keep the roof over my head, and so on.

I think the money thing is something that Roddenbery put in there for his super idealistic of the future.

Personally I hope money is something that in this new movie (we see them at a bar) forgets and that it takes a more realistic look and money and shows them paying for there drink, ect.

#10

i agree with monster_jester that there are different degrees of fereation worlds. there are the core worlds like earth and vulcan that really have no need for money. other worlds are phasing into that kind of economy.

like when bajor joins the federation, it isn’t likely it suddenly just does away with its economy. they probably will slowly let the people to give up using money.

i’d also like to say exchange isn’t the same as money.

the closest thing in the trek alpha quadrant to money is latinum. other things usually used for exchange are dilithium, medicine, weapons, ships, bio mimetic gel, and work.

also on a ship when use replicator and holodeck is limited, micro-economy emerge, where people would tread replicator rations or holodeck time and credits.

Perhaps people work job less desired because they want to be promoted and gain more ration credits.

#11

By the way, there is this talk of professional tennis. without money, what makes it pro?

#12

My guess would be being the best at tennis.

#13

This is an interesting subject. I think one thing that helps this type of economy is population. We hear that there was a WW3 which they say was nuclear and it took several generation to rebuild from. I believe that even in the 24th century they are nowhere near as over populated as we are today. I would also assume that the technology is such that having a kid is much more of a choice and “accidents” are extremely rare. I am just saying that I believe there are many people today that don’t follow there dream because of there responsibilities as a parent. Some people in the 24th century will only want to have a family, some will want to be farmers, chefs, athletes, bartenders, actors, scientists, and perhaps there would even be lawyers (but without the need for money who knows why? ;)).

I think as the years go buy and technology gets better (thanks to the people free to pursue their dreams and ambitions) the need for money is constantly disappearing from each culture in Star Trek. I think we take for granted just how smart and well educated Star Fleet is (even though they don’t always act that way, especially Admirals :D). It seems to me that to pass the Star Fleet entrance exams you would have to have enough education to equal a Masters Degree. A lieutenant would have at least one if not several PhD’s, at least as much as a Doctor that has finished there residency. What more in life could you want than to follow your heart and let it make your decisions. I believe this is the source of all the optimism in Trek. We have been there, we have done it, we got over it and so can you.

I am sure there is some trading and a credit system is used. There would be no need for paper currency in the 24th century. Since it is apparent that most other races trade goods or other commonly valued items such as Gold Pressed Latinum there would also be an exchange value for Federation Credits. I think one reason that Picard said that the economics are different is that the Federation wouldn’t or shouldn’t need to trade anything to build a starship at that time. They can mine, process, refine and create all the components they need to build the ships so it would be hard to put a price on. Not to mention that I don’t think StarFleet is in the business of selling their ships. :stuck_out_tongue:

#14

I always thot that most people on Earth didn’t see the point of his restaurant, since they could get the same food (essentially) from any replicator. Those who frequented his restaurant were probably what we today would call “foodies”, so he probably just enjoyed cooking for people who appreciated a home-cooked meal over a replicated one. Presumably the vast majority of people couldn’t taste the difference.

I also have to wonder if some found it distasteful, since Picard said that humans no longer “enslaved” animals for food. Imagine what people must have thot about someone who cooked real meat in an otherwise vegan society. Did he raise, kill, and butcher the animals himself?

Generally speaking, I look at the officers in Starfleet and assume that their willingness to do their jobs comes from a fulfillment of doing their work, or from the desire to be somewhere/accomplish some thing. It’s clear that Picard considers himself an explorer, and enjoys that opportunity. Bashir wanted to practice “frontier medicine”.

For work we often give people little pieces of paper that enable them to exchange to others for what they want or need. The paper is not the relevant part. The exchange is. For a ship and a crew to explore, Picard agrees to give diplomatic and other services to Starfleet. Bashir agrees to deal with Starfleet red tape.

“From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” :slight_smile:

It’s important to remember that Star Trek began in the '60s; it seems obvious that Roddenberry envisioned the future as an interstellar commune, where everyone just looked out for each other and didn’t take more than their fair share. It represented a dramatic shift in what we currently think of as basic human nature. The implication, of course, is that we’re currently too primitive to understand how it could possibly work, but it does, and we should still aspire to it.

That seems doubtful. The materials were probably replicated, and homes were probably constructed by engineers who enjoyed doing so.

Presumably, Federation credits are a form of fiat currency that were only used for dealing with societies that still used money. Having access to that is probably just another perk of Federation membership. Among these theoretically more evolved humans, its use wouldn’t be abused, so it was a self-regulating system. Again, with the assumption being that humans behave themselves as well as Picard and crew seemed to think they would.

Groupies, of course. :stuck_out_tongue:

#15

I have no idea how the economies of Star Trek work, and I am a life long Star Trek fan. I would like to point out that the economy of Starfleet Officers on a ship are probably quite different then the economies in a 24th century New Orleans restaurant.

A Starfleet officer serving aboard a ship probably does not use money on a regular basis. He gets quarters, food, and all their needs taken care of in exchange for his service. My guess is that they must get some other kind of compensation, otherwise what would they do when they retire, or if they have families?

I think what Picard saying about money not existing was an exaggeration. Paper currency probably does not exist, at least within most Federation worlds. I do believe that what Picard says about the acquisition of wealth no longer being the driving force behind humanity is true, and true for most members of Federation worlds. Picard also has no way to say how much the Enterprise costs, becuase as somone already said, Starfleet or The Federation builds it from the ground up. That is not the same thing as saying money does not exist.

As for the world outside of Starfleet… we don’t have a lot to go on, but I would assume that money of some kind exists.