RIP - Democracy

Television, Movies Games and Books BSG-2003
#1

Gaeta and Zarek were trying to save democracy but in the process killed it. Gaeta killed Democracy by allowing Zarek to run free and not having the stones to stop him when he was clearly out of control. Gaeta could have easily have saved everything once he saw that Zarek would not allow Adama a fair trial for his crimes. This red flag should have made Gaeta aware that Zarek didn’t want to follow the rules of democracy and justice. If Gaeta would have stopped Zarek at that point, The Quorum could have been saved. And Gaeta could have gotten the true trial of Adama. But thanks to Gaeta and Zarek, democracy was killed in a very ugly way.

What do you think?

#2

I think I would have to disagree with you - given the right timing, I could see Zarek clubbing Gaeta in the back of a head with a wrench, too.

#3

I will have to second Casilda’s thoughts

#4

Zarek didn’t kill democracy, and Adama didn’t kill democracy. Cylons killed democracy when they nuked the colonies. They didn’t HAVE democracy since then… what they had was a charade that resembled a democracy, to help them feel better. In reality, the Quorum had no real power of any kind… it was a glorified complaints department.

#5

Gaeta’s beliefs were understandable especially with all he has gone through. Unfortunately he chose the wrong horse to back (again) in Zarek. Zarek is a crazy fanatic who was waiting for a chance to grab power. When Gaeta saw he was crazy he quickly realized his plans for the right thing and revenge were heading in the wrong direction.

#6

I may quibble a little bit too. Despite what Richard Hatch said during his interview, I’ve never gotten the impression that Zarek has ever been motivated by anything other than gaining his own person power. He just uses talk of democratic aims to further his own adjenda.

And while I think Gaeta certainly believed in the democratic system, I don’t think that was the basis of his motivations either. He was certainly dealing with his own person demons, but more importantly he just couldn’t abide with the discision to align with the Cylons. He thought maintaining the democratic system was important to legitimize his actions, but I don’t think that was the main basis of his motivations…

#7

Does it make any sense to say I think Zarek was only grabbing for power, but Zarek convinced himself he was fighting for democracy as a representative of the will of the people, that he (at least before this ep) honestly believed he was doing it for the right reasons? “The world’s a mess, and I just…need to rule it.”

#8

I don’t know about that. It seems to me that the sine qua non of Democracy is the military and other government agents obeying duly the elected civilian authorities. The fleet passes this test. They held the regularly scheduled presidential election on time. The challenger won the election. The incumbent voluntarily relinquished power. The military authorities recognized the election results and implemented a policy which which they did not agree, colonizing New Caprica. Since leaving New Caprica the transfer of the office of the President has been handled by the Quorum, presumably as per the Articles of Colonization. This is just what would happen in the United States under the Constitution if a vacancy had occurred. (I’m assuming Baltar was impeached and removed from office off screen.)

I think it’s a real democracy.

#9

I don’t think democracy is dead (and really, how can it be - it’s an idea). I think that it will just have to wait until they are more settled.

Zarek never gave a frak about democrazy. He was a slimy nasty power hungry douche. Gaeta was a racist who was miserable about all the shit that had happened to him and the fact that he didn’t get to be an architect like he wanted. His motive was never democrazy it was revenge/hatred of cylons - and disappointment in Adama for going along with the rebel cylons.

I also don’t think that Roslin/Adama are out to destroy democracy. I think they are trying to do everything they can to keep the human race alive and taking a show of hands very often doesn’t help anything - it makes things worse.

#10

Thirded. Zarek would have off’d Gaeta for sure. He just needed him as a military puppet so that the others in uniforms could pretend Colonial military order still existed and that what they were doing was somehow justified. Having a civvie like Zarek give the orders directly to the military in the CIC would have been too much for them to accept, IMO. If Gaeta had refused to continue Zarek’s plans standing anywhere other than the CIC, I think Zarek would have taken the opportunity to dispatch him without thinking twice. Of course, then he’d have to find another puppet or take over the military hierarchy himself.

#11

Zarek and Geata did the right thing… except in Zarek’s case for the wrong reaasons. But the right thing is the right thing no matter what.

UNTIL>>>>>>>>>>

Zarek killed the Quarom. At that point the writers had to have him do something outside the relm of a revolution/freedom fight to make him a bad guy ( the wrench thing is just part of a war- I hate it, but it’s reality). If Tom had never killed the 12… he would still be in the right.

As soon as the Qurom didn’t back him… he needed to back down.

I still think Geata should get a pass. Lee mutinied and lived. Adama and Tigh declared martial law and initiated a coup… and lived. Geata should have lived. Hell the murdrering flight captain that reapeered in this episode episode wasn’t even killed.

#12

I believe that what died that day is the system of the 12 colonies. Geata and Zarek finally put it out of its miseries .

Thw 12 colonies were destroyed a long time ago…yet…its system of goverment kept on living…like a ghost believing that it is still alive, like it can still influence the world.

it was NOT a democratic system…i meam…were we suppose to believe every tribe had an equal number represented on the quorun?..How were theses peoples voted on?..they seemed to be nominated by whomever was in power at the time…

Now…what wil come next?..i dont know…if it did not sound so stupid…i say go for a monarchy…with a string constitution to limit the power of the sovereign in times of peace…yet very powrful in a time of war.

have the captains of the ships as a royal counsel.

and for this to work…integrate the cylons completly…the more they stay on their baseship and look mysterious…the more peoples hate them. have them be part of the population…and relieve the pressure on the rest on the fleet by having the baseship take on some civilians…would be funny…just to see a centurion having to show some 4-year old where the bathroom is…

ah, well

RIP 12 colonies

#13

RIP indeed. There aren’t 12 colonies anymore; the Quorom was an outdated holdover from a time when each colony was its own and needed a voice on a solar system scale. I don’t know if RDM & Co. intend to address this or not, but what colony people are from really doesn’t matter much now.

#14

Yep… I think if Adama hadn’t taken over the CIC when he did, Zarek might have had Gaeta killed right there, and taken over… Zarek had support all his own from some of the Marines, without Gaeta.

#15

I agree with many of the criticisms of the Roslin/Adama regime and think trying to remove them from power is fine, but there is a right way and a wrong way to go about that.

The right way of removing leaders with whom one disagrees is to vote. Vote the bums out. The fleet has regularly scheduled elections. The fleet had a representative body capable of removing the President through orderly, legal means. Gaeta should have gone to the Quorum, made his case and asked them to remove Roslin, or even Adama for that matter.

The wrong way to remove leaders is to stage a coup d’etat. It’s wrong because it 1) is illegal, 2) is a violation of Geata’s oath, 3) necessarily entails murdering people, 4) is disloyal, and 5) totally undermines the confidence of the people in the military.

#16

Agreed on all points. In particular that democracy is not dead but it is in a very very deep sleep.

I don’t think Adama and Roslin will be in power too much longer. My guess is that only a few will survive, neither Roslin nor Adama will be among them. The question of democracy vs temporary military control will be mute. There will be little left to govern. But the handful that make it will take their history with them and at some point democracy will awaken. After all, most colonists and some cylons value the vote.

#17

Folks have got to remember that all that is left is the equivalent of a small city. Not the billions that were around before.

Also, after this little coup stunt there are even fewer left to govern. Guess those folks ideas on freedom and democracy really didn’t count.

Wonder what the percentage of mutineer marines were Pegasus vs Galactica original crew.

#18

Democracy was always dead, The qorum is a representive republic not a democracy.

#19

If I’m in the fleet I WANT people with training, skill, and authority to make decisions for me regarding my safety and the continuance of my species. Laura and Adama may not be perfect (who is?) but I believe all their decisions are based on doing what they think is best for the fleet and it’s people. Could they have done things better? Of course. Given the circumstances, I think they’ve done the best they could possibly do under extraordinary circumstances.

#20

here is the way a commander can be relieved

An officer in the field is to report against a commander that he feels is in violation of the law at any time. ( asumeing the violation is a felony or an eminate threat to his command of civillians). As a matter of fact, if there is no higher ranking officer than that commander availible… it’s his duty to remove that officer and any complicit officers and men. He is to then complete the mission at hand and then turn the commander over to rightfull athority. the only catch is… he better be right. cause when the authorities get together and have the trial… and the junior is wrong , it’s mutiny. If he’s found to be right…it was all legal and he’s a hero.

the Rosylyn thing is shaky because she was never relieved of being President. But Geata never captured her, so it can’t be said that he was in mutiny against her or would have killed her ( legaly speaking, the Rodama allies don’t have proof of it… Lee and Kara just assumed as much, and we just are privy to geata’s conversations from here outside the 4th wall. Jamming her speach means nothing… it might have been somone pretending to be her… he can jamm whatever he wants legaly)

Geata did it the right way at first. BUT… the min the Quraum wasn’t playing ball… he was done.