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#21

Deep space 9 screwed up the whole thing by haveing Kang, Kor, and Koloth appear as turtle heads in thier episodes while maintaining that the Original TOS klingons were swarthy as well in thier Trouble with Tribbles tribute.

Roddenberry always maintianed that just as the movie’s credits say: the movies are “based on Star Trek” and therefor the kilingons had ALWAYS been turtle heads. AKA TMP was a reboot of the series and just like George Lucas he made the movie Klingons to make up for what he had always wanted to do with them. it makes NO sense that the fedeartion and educated starfleet officers 80 years later wouldn’t all know the story of how three years after the end of the 5 year mission ( as Obrian and even Bashier had no clue of the switch) the chief enemy of the federation simply appeared to have done a complete metemorphisis. Like this was something that starfleet’s finest had never even heard of and Worf wouldn’t speak of it. Just stupid.

Enterprise had to come up with a silly explanation at that point. DS9 just f’cked us in the a$$ on that one!

#22

Yeah I had forgotten about the Kang, Kor and Koloth episode. Probably on purpose… It was a great idea to bring them back before the actors all died. But I just wish they could have remained ‘goatee’ Klingons. And in the ‘Tribble’ episode they just tried to make light of it, which was kind of insulting in a way. But the episode was so good you kind of had to forgive them.

#23

Yeah, I’m with you both.

I loved Kang, Kor and Koloth coming back— with the actual actors. But I would have been happier if they were the old-style TOS Klingons.

We fraked that ep just a couple months ago http://forum.galacticwatercooler.com/showthread.php?14797-Star-Trek-Deep-Space-Nine-2x19-Blood-Oath&highlight=Kang

#24

I can see your point; on the other hand, Worf’s “We do not speak of it to outsiders” line had at least three things going for it: (a) it was darned funny; (b) it totally fit with Klingon culture as established in TNG and forward; and © it invited the viewers to do some thinking and imagining on their own.

#25

I really liked the Enterprise explanation for the ridges, and the fact that a few folks a hundred years later weren’t intimately aware of this piece of Klingon history doesn’t seem strange at all. If they didn’t watch the space documentary channel or movies about the era, they might not have been aware of the cosmetic changes Klingons went through. Starfleet knew. The Federation knew. It’s not like it was a big secret, it was just a culturally embarassing interval in Klingon history and Worf’s “we do not speak of this with outsiders” (in an in-universe role) would be a perfectly cromulent way of responding to a question about something that’s really embarassing.

The dude has pride, after all!

As for Kang/Kor/Koloth, if a treatment became commonly available between the TOS/TMP timeframe, why wouldn’t they avail themselves of it? Many TOS books written after Enterprise describe a sort of internal cultural struggle between the goatees and turtleheads. Maybe the smooth headed guys were the equivalent of Black Panthers in their youth who embrace who they are then eventually ‘ease up’ later in life, too.

#26

Speaking as an Army officer, military personal recognise when thier primary enemy morphs into a different species, overnight. Especially when guys like Kor or Kang that are responsible for multiple Federation military deaths, aka high value targets, turn up within the same life time ( aka Kang showed up to fight Sulu and the crew of the Excelsior during ST VI - see Voyager episode) to have been completely changed. Also the Klingons had a Ridge head Ambasador. EVERYONE would , no doubt, consider the Klingon change as an extremely important socialogical and historical event. IT’s not like it was hundred’s of years ago for them, it was 80. ALSO… you don’t think that is covered in a basic class about Klingons at the academy? I mean we get classes about our allies and enemys. Don’t we think that the Klingons becomeing completely different people ( in looks and deeds…heck even changeing blood color) becomes the topic of conversation EVERY time someone mentions Klingons? Do we think that Bashir, 1st in his class at the academy, has no knowledge of this? HE sure didnt. Seriously?

ALSO… you would think that EVERY DS9 Federation citizen would have grown up with the story passed down from grandpa about the day the Klingons just showed up as completely different animals. “See we were fighting the Kligons back then…and they always lied and never kept thier word…becuause that was how they always acted. The spoke calmly and directly and never used the words Honor and didn’t fight each other 24/7 and use the words “Blood wine” “targ” or mention " thier family or house” after every sentance. Then after thier face’s changes they began to speak thier native language constantly, all of a sudden became opra loveing warrior poets, and want to break out into fights all the time and vocal speak out AGAINST deception and intrigue as a form of warfare. BTW this all happened between 2269 and 2271.

#27

Ah, but we have no evidence to suggest they ALL were smooth skins. Maybe the Enterprise ran into a few ships of them in the series but the rest of their Klingon meetings were with turtle heads.

#28

Oh, and what about that old K’tinga class ‘sleeper ship’ that had been sent deep behind enemy lines in TNG, remember that episode with Worf’s love interest? That ship was pre-TNG and it was entirely populated with turtleheads, and the crew when they were awakened were not at all suprised to see more turtleheads when Worf and his squeeze adressed them via the com.

The same could be said for that antique Klingon ship that Voyager ran into in the Delta quadrant, again a very old ship but still populated with turtleheads…

#29

Exactly, it seems pretty clear that the smooth-skinned guys were the minority. This is supported by the Enterprise episode as well; it’s not the entire empire that’s become infected, it’s a small segment. The TOS books written since that mention Klingons usually also mention the class struggle between the two. As for Bashir not recognizing them; it might be as simple as ‘it’s one thing to know the textbook history of a thing that happened a hundred years earlier and another to see it in person’. Also, just because these three crewmen don’t immediately recognize what the deal is doesn’t mean Starfleet doesn’t know.

#30

You make a good point about the military being educated on the nature of the enemy. But as for this point: is it that the Klingons changed overnight, or the UFP’s perception of them changed once peace was in the offing? Maybe it’s not entirely “believable” in universe, but I think, as a real world analogy, I appreciate the fact that we didn’t know about the Klingon’s ideals, or love of opera, or gagh, and all the rest, until we could make peace. I think war and suspicion often do get in the way of the average person (not necessarily the military who, as you say, are educated in these things) learning about another culture. Growing up, I know I knew nothing about the Soviets except I was afraid they’d nuke us.

#31

I love the K’tinga class design! One of my favorite bits of ST-TMP is the loving, 180 degrees flyover of the Amar. Also, K’tinga is just a cool word. (My vote for second coolest Klingon word? Kamarag, the name of the Ambassador from ST IV, given by Vonda McIntyre, but never spoken on screen. Kamarag - just rolls off the tongue so wonderfully!)

#32

excerpt that they saw specific Klingons change looks. ALSO In 1980 we knew when a Russian admiral had an affair. Federation knew what Klingon Captains looked like becuase we were fightning them. Watch Ds9, the old klingons tell us that they weren’t in a cold war…they were fighting.

Here is an example: When the IKS Fersome shows up, the first thing they do is pull up the starfleet record of the ship and it’s captain. As soon as the computer shows Kang and a picture and the viewscreen shows the same guy but with ridges…they would report that to Starfleet Inteligence immediatly. Immediate front page story! It’s not “unnoticed” or a secret. There is no “nerd” explanation for this…it’s jsut bad writeing on the part of the Ds9 writers.

#33

Except that WE saw thier episodes. They WERE changed overnight. It wasm’t " federation oppinon" it was what was in the actual episodes. They became completely different people for the actors to portray. An actor playing “back up Klingon” in The day of the dove, did not act like the same character in the back ground of a TNG episode, or an enterprise or the movies. In speech and manerisms, in culture and apparently social structure. Look at the difference between ST 3 Klingons and ST 6 Klingons. Look at Kor and Koloth and look at the “monkey” acting Klingons walking around Ds9 that just grunt and act like beasts. Look at how all klingons in TNG act like Klingons from Enterprise. But St 3 Klingons, the ambasadoe, the st 6 Klingons and TOS Klingons are nothing like the Klingons in Enterprise or in TNG. So it’s not a “time period” thing. It’s jsut bad writing in the real world.

#34

Well, we saw Klingons as they were presenting themselves around humans. We never saw Klingons within their own culture - as we did in TNG - or “at ease” enough to share freely and honestly of their culture with “Earthers.”

Plus, I always got the impression that Kruge and his men were rogues. “Even as our emissaries negotiate for peace… we shall act for the preservation of our race.”

As for differences in behavior, you find that among humans all the time.

#35

Also, cosmetic surgery and gene therapy to ‘fix’ the problem were both mentioned at the end of the Enterprise arc on the subject. Why would Starfleet Intelligence use century old pictures showing Kor and the other DS9 TOS Klingons as they used to be instead of how they look now?

#36

This completely from my memory which is overflowed with Star Trek stuff, and I don’t remember whether this is from The Final Reflection or the FASA Star Trek RPG or what but…

One take one whole Klingon appearance isssue is this: Klingons genetically modify the Klingons to be similar to the species on whose border they’re fighting.

So Klingons that are serving in the Klingon Military on the Federation border are made to look close to human.

Likewise, Klingons on the Romulan - Klingon border look more Romulan—pointed ears and all.

You would imagine that Klingons on the Klingon/ Kzinti border look somewhat cat-like.

And Klingons on the Klingon / Hydra border look somewhat Hydran

Anyone every heard this take on things?

#37

No, but it does remind me of Aliens… Of how the warrior drones take on the characteristics of their host’s. As in 3 the alien ran around on all fours and behaved much like the dog it had used as a host. And the Pred/Aliens from AVP and so on (it gets even more hairy in the comics and books)…

#38

yes they called them Human/Klingon hybrids and Romulan/Klingon hybrids and Inperial Klingon for turtle heads. ( all as playable characters)

#39

Ah! Thank you! I thot that was all in my head. Now it comes back to me.