Is Mal a Bully?

About Mal using intimidation to get people to follow orders part, i would like people to list a few examples, because i can’t think of any.

the two examples i’ve heard so far, i have give reasons why they are not bullying. in the pilot he was reacting to simon’s bullying. in the movie, he was giving them a choice more than forcing them to work or die.

Can Mal be a dick? Absolutely. Part of Mal’s being a dick is his sense of humor, and he calls it like he sees it. but most of it is him shielding himself from anyone getting too close. That applies especially to Inara. It doesn’t change the fact that he can be a dick. But to people who know him, they can see right through it.

As for Mal intimidating his crew, I think the one person he uses intimidation on the most is Jayne. But if Mal didn’t do that to Jayne, Jayne will be running the ship while pointing the gun at everyone.

bully

Main Entry: 3bully
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): bul·lied; bul·ly·ing
transitive verb
1 : to treat abusively
2 : to affect by means of force or coercion

so yes he’s done that; so he’s a bully; that said he’s a very good leader, I think its mostly cause he’s a military minded captain trying to deal with a relatively undisciplined civilian crew. I think those instances he was forced to resort to bullying were mostly truly dire circumstances

that said he’s just awesome. He can be an ass and a bully; but absolutely in all ways a better leader than Adama…

that’s two definitions. He might fit the first one. He does verbally abuse others sometimes, especially to Inara. But that is a rather loose definition of being a bully. Perhaps a dick would fit that definition better.

As for the second definition, i still haven’t seen any examples given.

In the movie he said work with him or leave, but stay to get in the way then he will shoot them. that’s not coercing them to work him, just telling them not to get in his way, working with him or not is a choice up to his crew.

I think we are falling into the same trap as the d-bag vs evil pos debate. Where is Steve when you need him? :smiley:

Not all dicks are bullies; but all bullies are dicks. Not all dicks use force to get their point across, but bullies use force it get what they want in the end. IYKWIM :stuck_out_tongue:

To pull out a dictionary definition is like following the “Letter of the Law” rather then the “Spirit of the Law”. Ultimately for me this whole discussion boils down to what your reaction is when you watch. Do you think “What a bully!” or “What a dick!”? It is really subjective because there are also others that think “Good choice!” or even “Aren’t you going a bit light on them?”. More then anything to do with Firefly, your opinion here speaks volumes about who you are as a person. Not to say one is better, just that it is interesting.

I agree with hansioux that breaking down certain scenes, like the one with Kaylee, is far better then defining what being a bully means. Besides, with a definition like to treat abusively or to affect by means of force or coercion that would make every person in the world a bully and the point would no longer matter.

well, force is required at some point… IYKWIM

second definition was in out of gas when wash won’t leave Zoe Mal grabs him and smashes him into the hull or something like that.

that said i don;t think it was unappropriated but it was bullying

but that is like saying someone slapping a person in shock to get them to snap out of it is considered a bully.

Just to clear what the situation was, Wash was overwhelmed by Zoe’s injury. If Wash didn’t man his post, they wouldn’t have figured out how bad things were and the entire crew would die.

okay i am know legally obligated to post this

NSFW not even close but i just gotta do it

//youtu.be/zcAaertdaQk&feature=related

i think it was more than that; Wash wasn’t hysterical, He simply wanted to be at his wifes side above all else. like i said before Mal was doing it for a greater purpose, but he bullied him back into the pilots chair which saved all there lives i might add so he was a bully but it was also the right thing to do as a leader.

you need to get this to the greatest speech of all time thread!!

I really considered it; but i was going for inspiration over there, not the cold hard truth of the world. this is more of a words of wisdom thread.

How dare you force me to picture those words coming out of Summer’s mouth! :mad:

You bully! :stuck_out_tongue:

weirdly, that does sound like something Cameron might say.

River might say them in Chinese.

A couple people have mentioned this, and I agree: two key ingredients in bully psychology are 1) malice and 2) sadism. Maybe 3) doing it for personal gain. Mal can be a dick, but he doesn’t do it to get his kicks. It’s always to advance his team, whoever that may be.

I don’t think he is a bully. A bully doesn’t feel bad when they hurt peoples feelings & Mal does. I think we do need to remember he is a capitan with military training & excpects orders to be followed. I think some Heinlein reading on space law would be important to keep in mind here too. A captain must be obeyed.

Ah, space law. Welcome aboard!

Very interesting discussion. I like some of you was thrown by Sean’s view of Mal as a bully. I’ve been watching some Firefly with this in mind, and I just don’t see it.

Mal’s the captain. He takes seriously the responsibility to protect his crew and Serenity. In a life and death situation Mal does what he thinks will best give them a chance at survival.

I love my Captain.

Sorry for coming to the party late. I didn’t realise this thread was here and posted the below in the thread for podcast 209. Hope no-one minds the X-post.

Re the whole Mal Bully conversation. I can see where you guys are coming from, but I can also see why people don’t agree quite vehemently.

For me, while he exhibits some dubious behaviour, Mal is not at his heart a bully. A through and through Bully is someone like Biff from BTTF, who is a git, enjoys being a git and doesn’t care how it impacts other people. A true bully wouldn’t have given the medicine back in Train Job.

Mal isn’t like that. At heart he is a good and courageous person, but at times he does stuff which upsets others. I don’t think he in any way revels in this, and for the most part I think he either regrets or doesn’t realise what he’s doing. I think he’s also broken, thanks to Serenity Valley, and I suspect that is a large part of it. Possibly this would have been explored more if the series had continued. I think what I’m trying to say is that he acts as a bully sometimes but isn’t inherantly one. (if you’ll pardon the split hair).

To go into some specifics. I see three places where he really shows this stuff off.

  1. When he orders people around as if he and they were in the millitary.

I totally get what Chuck was saying about leadership, and in the opening scene in the episode Serenity Mal very clearly has that. However, one of the key ways the millitary differs from civilian life is that while great leadership is desirable, absolute discipline is a fundamental concept and must be upheld at all costs. This harks back to when men were lined up and ordered to march into fire in formation and operate in a coordinated way following orders (e.g. Zulu). Or to Naval combat in the age of sail. The millitary cannot afford for individual soldiers to start questioning orders, even if they are right, or the whole thing falls appart. This isn’t fun if you are at the receiving end of the orders, but that’s probably why Shaun should never be a soldier :slight_smile: The way Mal behaves would be completely appropriate and legal within the confines of a millitary campaign, especially a desperate losing campaign such as he fought in. Incidentaly, Mal’s unswerving loyalty to his people is another aspect of this.

Where Mal falls down (and I’ve seen this with real ex-millitary people) is that he can’t get his head round civilian life, especially having been on the losing side. The way he behaves is appropriate in the millitary, but not outside it. Something that the show is clearly aware of and lampshades via Wash and his frequent comments to Zoe.

I think the reason for this, which harks back to Chuck’s comments on leadership, is that Mal has lost his faith.

[i]“A man does not have himself killed for a half-pence a day or for a petty distinction. You must speak to the soul in order to electrify him.”

  • Napoleon Bonaparte [/i]

Mal believed in independence and had his faith crushed when they abandoned him and ultimately lost. He has been left adrift in a verse he struggles to deal with and not beleiving in anything beyond himself. So he falls back on what he knows and is good at, the millitary way of life. This is a failing of his, a weakness. You can call it bullying, but to be honest I think it over-simplifies what is going on. I think the way the other characters put up with this behaviour indicates that they see this as well. He isn’t at heart a bully, he’s just broken and adrift and getting by the only way he knows how.

  1. The way he speaks to Inaria.

This is a lot easier to explain. He loves her and cares for her, but struggles to put his faith in anything after what happened last time, especially given what she does (which he likely privately sees as a snub to him). It’s hardly an uncommon reaction for people to react the way he does to something they desire but are afraid of. It’s not particularly nice, but it’s very human. Again, to me this doesn’t show him as a to the core bully.

  1. The way he speaks to Kayleigh (especially in Shindig)

To me, this is the least excusable, but also the most obvious. He’s just being a boorish bloke who shoots off his mouth before he thinks. You could probably also make some argument that he sees Kayleigh as ‘one of the guys’ and assumes she’ll be cool about this sort of thing in the knock about way small units can be. I think that’s a bit of a reach though. TBH, I struggle most with this as there is no obvious backstory explanation for it. If you contrast how he reacts to Jayne being rude about Kayleigh to how he talks to her in Shindig, it makes him a hypocrite. (I know the way he speaks to Inaria already does that, but there’s a reason there). Mal is lots of things, but he’s genrally true to himself. I’m inclined to put it down to poor writing and not build a larger story out of it.

So, in summary I think Mal displays some behaviour which can be classed as bullying, but I can’t see him as a bully himself. To give another example, I can’t picture a bully behaving as he did with his ‘bride’.

This is quite easily explained, or maybe its just the way I saw it. He lashed out at Kayleigh because he had no outlet for his feelings about Inara (who was going to the ball as well). Childish and rude to be sure but understandable. Sort of like a kid saying ‘your coloring book is stupid and you’re ugly too!’ when a classmate wont let him borrow a crayon. Translation: I wish Inara wasnt going to the ball with some rich handsome guy and was hanging out with me instead, but since Im too confused and or cowardly in regards to my feelings for her Ill lash out whenever Im reminded of what Im losing. Geez, I remember having a better analogy for that.

And that certainly makes him a hypocrite when he reprimands Jayne for the same insensitivity.