GWC Re-Watch Frak Party: A Measure of Salvation

It’s week thirty-seven of our planned off-season re-watch of the entire “re-imagined” BSG canon, and after a little time off to watch Razor, it’s time to move on to the season three episode “Torn.” So why not join us here for the GWC online frak party? There’s room for everyone, though you’ll have to bring your own snacks…

Feel free to jump in at any point with your comments on this week’s episode as the re-watch is by definition spoiler free. We’ll be in and out, but we’ll definitely take a look at your comments before we start next week’s podcast.

Note: Some readers/listeners asked us to leave comments open on the frak party blog post as they enjoy commenting more than forums. So if you have the time, keep an eye on the blog post every now and then, too, so we don’t leave 'em out in the cold.

http://www.galacticawatercooler.com/2007/12/30/gwc-re-watch-frak-party-a-measure-of-salvation/

Wow, I’m the first one here? Did everybody party too hard over New Year’s?

Roslin’s decision to use a biological weapon against the Cylons made me wonder what her experience with Cylons during the First Cylon War was like. She makes other arguments for her decision here, particularly that she’s willing for future generations to remember her as a butcher because at least there will be future generations–no doubt the mess that not stealing the election resulted in has left her thinking that playing by the rules is not all it’s cracked up to be. However, I think her view of Cylon personhood informs her decision as much as anything else. I wonder about her past because her perspective on the “humanity” or machineness of the Cylons seems similar to Tigh’s; she sees them as machines, first, last, and always, and therefore the moral threshold for genocide is not nearly as high as it would be for killing humans. If a person originally, personally knew the Cylons as walking toasters, held a forty-year-old grudge, and had little contact with the new, possibly good Cylons like Athena and Caprica Six to challenge opinions formed by those previous encounters, I could see how one could be comfortable with making decisions as if Cylons weren’t entitled to human rights. Coming face-to-face with the Other makes it much, much harder to treat them as sub-human, as we see in how Adama’s attitude towards the possibility of Cylons being human changes after he spends months on Galactica with Sharon during the New Caprica arc.

Though I don’t think they ever would have ordered or supported the rape of Cylon prisoners as Cain did, how would Tigh or Roslin have perceived or dealt with Sharon’s rape and Helo and the Chief’s attempted rescue, given their views of Cylons as less than human? Would they have thought similarly to Fiske, that “You can’t rape a machine”? And yet Roslin objected to Starbuck’s torturing Leoben to get information back in “Flesh and Bone”–right before she airlocked Leoben…complicated, eh?

I love the ambiguous hatred of Athena from the sick Sharon model, first, disgusted, calling Athena a traitor, then warning her to stay away from them so as to not get infected by the virus herself.

Man, I hate it when cylons decide to bring in, not one, but two of Larry’s taller, dumber cousins to try and be all persuasive in leaning info about me when I’ve been… less than honest. They seem like they’d be a bit too convincing. I wish I had a head Six on my side to help me avoid being… tempted by persuasive “conversations” too!

Caprica Six looks like she’s in almost as much pain as Baltar in the torture scene… until Gaius reacts perfectly with his “I love you,” which makes her look like she’s in even more pain than he’s in at the moment.

What’s the logic for the cylons in looking toward Earth as a new beginning as they put it? A new beginning would be finding their own planet and starting over away from humans, but going to Earth seems like trying to reconnect with a past that doesn’t want them, with a people that don’t get along with them too well and actually, neither humans nor cylons have really treated each other all that well throughout the decades from what we’ve seen and heard about their past!

Notice the juxtaposition in way the two races try to elicit information from prisoners, the cylons try torture on Baltar, with little success, while the humans dangle the carrot of healing with a virus vaccine, granted, they don’t mention that it isn’t a cure and then they talk of using the prisoners as a means of committing genocide on the entire cylon race (with a plan, non too different than the one thought of in Star Trek to get rid of the Borg once and for all, by infecting a main ship with a virus carried by one of their own people).

It must be nice to have the kind of mojo to get at least two different Six models (Caprica, Gina and Head Six?) along with Dianna to fall for you, especially in the middle of one of them ear frakking you with some crazy pain stick, causing you to profusely bleed from said ea… and that’s only the cylons Baltar’s wooed!

KAPPA: I like your point. It’s interesting how Roslyn is opposed to torture of cylons (Starbuck’s torture tactics against Leoben in Flesh and Bone) and the crew that knows about it look upon the rape of Gina and the attempted rape of Sharon as horrible things, while Adama looks more favorably on Helo and the Chief’s attempted rescue and ultimate killing of the attempted rapist, Adama and Roslyn, in the end attempt to wipe out the entire cylon race. So, to them (mainly Roslyn), genocide is OK, just don’t treat them poorly just before killing them?

Hey look, we get a peek of Starbuck as she’s loading into her Viper, that’s the first look we get of her thus far in the episode, it’s only approaching 35 minutes into the episode!

The moral voice of Helo has been strong all episode, some would say all series long and today it wins out, even if it does mean he went against, ultimately the orders of the President. He keeps humanity from committing genocide, he keeps the love of his wife and he can still sleep at night, which for a moral person (unlike people like Fisk), is extremely important.

So Measure of Salvation was apparently not a big response-drawer, but I wanted to say that I liked this ep a lot more the second time around. I do, however, feel that Lee’s response is out of character. Haven’t gotten to the cast yet to see if this is discussed but would love to hear more from the good people here.

Does it seem to you like Lee’s willingness to wipe out the Cylon race- and his genuine viewpoint that it is not genocide to do so- seem out of character to you? Lee is usually a person who questions and analyzes and sees in shades of grey, which is why I found his incredible certainty to be strange. He was even the one who suggested using the disease as a weapon in the first place!

I agree, Starbuccaneer. Lee is my favorite character, and his behavior in this ep just bugged me. I think you could replace Helo with Season 1 Lee and be totally fine.

I also think the premise of Measure of Salvation is inherently flawed-the genocide issue is a good question, but there can be no real resolution. If they did kill the Cylons, where would the show go?

Starbuccaneer and Phoenix - I completely agree re: Lee’s behavior. I remarked in the latest podcast (#79) that I thought he acted out of character, and that it seemed the writers for that episode drained all the morality out of him to bolster Helo, as if they couldn’t both be moral at the same time!

lol
I listened to the podcast the next day, I think, and was like, “well, I feel redundant.”

I think that Lee’s refusal to consider whether the Cylons are people- that could be alive and have what we think of as “human rights” because of their sentience- is what bothered me most. So many times throughout the series we see that Lee is a very nuanced character and that he usually considers all the various shades of grey in a given situation. For example, he supported Roslin over his father in season 1, and was the person who suggested bringing Zarek in as "the enemy of [her] enemy; in “Crossroads” Lee’s ridiculously long courtroom speech is all about seeing both sides.

Also, I rarely miss the moralism of the Star Trek universe, but I found myself almost wishing for Diana Troy to run into the Admiral’s Office and say, “They are more than mere machines- they are intelligent life forms and we must respect that!” And for Helo to be like, “Yeah, what she said!” And then Lee could go all Worf on them and be cranky and whiny (he’s good at that).

It seems to me that Lee’s morality took a hit after Boomer shot his father at the end of season 1. When Starbuck got back from Caprica with the Arrow, he seemed more than happy to see Athena get airlocked and drew his pistol on her twice even; at the beginning and again when she was in the brig.

So, I don’t think it’s all that out of character for him to want the Cylons over with after seeing his father shot right in front of him.