This week: Audra talks middle-Earth technology with The Tolkien Professor. Sean relates his awesome Tekken 3 tournament experience and teaches Chuck (and you) how to go from zero to hero in Tekken 6 with just a few hours practice. And we discuss battle tactics and leadership in Lord of the Rings: Two Towers. We also run down the week in geek, including the Pride and Prejudice and Zombies film’s addition of Natalie Portman to their fold, David Lynch’s George Lucas bash session in NYC, Joss Whedon’s opinion as to why Dollhouse met low ratings and was canceled, and Sean’s rant regarding Modern Warfare 2’s LAN party blow-off.
Yes! There are similarities in Macbeth. I read Macbeth after The Lord of the Rings so at first I was like “hey Shakespeare just ripped off The Lord of the Rings”, but yeah, I think its safe to say that Tolkien “borrowed” from Macbeth.
In the first act, the witches prophesy that Macbeth will be crowned king. His throne will be safe until Birnam Forest comes to Dunsinane, and he will not die by the hand of any man born of a woman, both meant to mislead Macbeth into thinking he’s invincible. Banquo warns Macbeth of half truths meant to deceive, but Lady Macbeth (who is treacherous and sucks balls) is all to willing to believe.
In the final act, and what Audra was alluding to, Malcolm’s army approaches under cover of boughs cut from Birnam Forest (for my money an actual army of trees is way cooler), then Macduff meets Macbeth on the field of battle. Macbeth laughs, “no man born of woman can kill me” and Macduff claims “I was from my mothers womb untimely ripped” (basically a c-section) then kills him, which is of course similar to “I am no man”. Both stories end with the restoration of the proper blood line to the throne.
Also, re: the discussion of the class difference between Frodo and Sam. I’m pretty sure that Sam was modeled after Pickwick’s faithful servant Sam in Charles Dickens’ The Pickwick Papers. One of Dickens’ favorite themes was class struggle. I think both Sams were meant to convey a loyalty that transcends one’s “proper place” and that heroism is not limited to financial or social status.
Just so you know, the word “weird” entered the English vernacular thanks to MacBeth. The Wyrrd sisters were actually borrowed directly from Scandinavian mythology; where each sister saw the past, the present, and the future. And they usually appeared before a great battle, or where someone was going to die.
Anyways, hey peeps, the Tolkien Professor is on twitter! Yay!~!
https://twitter.com/tolkienprof
PS Tom, that’ the JRR Tolkien’s personal Middle Earth crest. It’s also a copyrighted logo if I’m not wrong ~_~
The good professor’s podcast, episode “Rescued in the Wild, By the Wild 2” covers, among other things, orcs and eagles. Eeeagle!
iTunes, “The Tolkien Professor.”
XD
good one. shouldn’t that c be in tengwar?
haha…that’s a good one, Tom~! 
Tom! Thank you for articulating so well the Macbeth allusions. I knew there was something in my memory about the forest moving, but couldn’t think of it on the spot. Yay hive mind!
i am listening to the beginning. i am a big dollhouse fan and i read that interview as well.
i remember at a certain point early in season 2, Fox went hands off on the show.
http://scifiwire.com/2009/08/fox-executives-well-leave.php
which means the episodes that are AWESOME so far in season two is the results of what Joss whats the show to be.
Now, FOX in season 1 of Dollhouse went as far as scrapping the original pilot (reminds you of an other Joss Whedon show?) I personally think that FOX wants more stand alone shows. And Joss wanted the more metho centric shows.
Just look at what did wanted for the season 1 finale which FOX wouldn’t show? Joss had an arc he wanted to go and in season 2 he gets to work towards that goal.
This a pretty neat map that I found on the googles.
It combines the Lord of the Rings area map and the Sillmarillion area map.
(Although, spoiler alert, in the time of the Lord of the Rings all those lands to the west of Arnor don’t exist cuz they fell into the sea in the previous age.)
Hi guys, great podcast! Lord of the rings is one of my favorite things in the universe so I am stoked about this arc to say the least.
Having said that I have a few points about Theodin which I think have some relevance to the discussion. You are certainly right when you state that he was not a stellar learder during the battle of Helms deep, but I think you are missing some important contextual points that are really important to the story overall and the character.
First, Theodin has just recently lost his only son to Sauramon. Second, he was duped by Sauramon into doing his bidding (I don’t really think he could have prevented this with Suaramon being as powerful as he is). Third, he is from a long line of legendary and successful Riddermark kings to which he does not feel he is living up to their standard. He feels like a total failure in every way, a failure to himself, a failure to his peoplae and most of all failure to protect his son.
So, given those circumstances, I understand his decision to fall back to Helm’s deep because thats what they always do in the face of an oncoming flood. It’s always worked in the past and he has no reason to believe it won’t work this time as well. So he stands there and lets the battle happen around him because he is consumed by grief, and doesn’t seem to really care if he lives or dies. No, not a great leader in that moment, but totally explainable given the circumstances. Theodin is worthy of pity from us, but don’t be too hard on him for not manning up in that moment. I guess my main point here would be that Theodin has human weaknesses just like everyone else and is having trouble sorting them out (“Who am I Gamling?”).
Also, this plot point goes a long way towards mending of fences between Rohan and Gondor which have a long history of political infighting and poor relations. Theodin would have never gone to the Battle of the Pelenor Fields save for Aragorn’s help at Helms Deep and his deeply inspiring display of leadership.
I think the character of Theodin says so much about this series. Strength, history and dignity combined with frailty and vulnerability. Also the ability of humans to rise from the ashes so to speak. Seems like this theme is a common one for Tolkein, and a comment from him on humanity in general.
I LOVE talking LOTR, keep up the great work!
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Another great podcast! Your discussion of Gandalf and Bones’s charge into Helms Deep reminded me of how each of scenes involving charging horses (FOTR, the flood summoned by Arwen; TT, the charge into Helms Deep; and ROTK, Theoden’s charge into the battle at Minas Tirith) are quite emotional. And, I’m not particularly a horse person. I think this shows what a great film maker PJ is. Each does occur at a particular crucial plot point, but I also think PJ uses visual and especially auditory cues to evoke an emotional response. I’ve heard it claimed that people can become overwhelmed watching rocket and shuttle launches in part because of our response to the low, deep rumbling sounds that make many feel unsettled. I’ve suspected that PJ and his sound editors used similar techniques at those scenes.
It’s amazing how quickly this arc is passing by with so much of LOTR going un-touched. I suggest a rewatch of the series becomes a regular winter holiday tradition for GWC…
Hey Guys, enjoying the Tolkien arc. The segments with “the Tolkien Prof.” are fascinating.
Wanted to make one comment on the subject of things made by hand vs. things made by industrialization.
It seemed like the implication was made that things created (crafted) by hand in Middle Earth are always good, which Sean promptly shot down by pointing out that the Ring was crafted and is definitely not good. I think Tolkien would say that things that are crafted by hand are ‘powerful’ or ‘magical’ by virtue of the fact that part of the essence of the creator is in the creation. The Profs example was the magical cloaks given to the fellowship by the elves. The cloaks are powerful and good because the elves are powerful and good.
Sauron created the Ring using the craft of the elves and infusing his power into it. The Ring is malicious and evil because Sauron is malicious and evil. The Prof’s point about domination comes into play here, too. Sauron’s creation of the Ring was primarily to dominate the other rings and thereby control the people of middle earth. “…And in the darkness bind them” and all that.
Yeah, or at least the discussion of it. These are long films and I don’t know if I have it in me to watch them all the way through again very soon. After all, why not make next year a re-READ of the books instead to stimulate some very interesting conversation. I suppose it’s possible that someone here hasn’t actually read the books, silly as it may sound.
Regarding Chuck’s thoughts on science/progress/industrialization vs. magic/tradition/handmade, last week’s podcast really got me thinking about it. I’ve noticed this nostalgic tendency of Tolkien’s before, and it would seem strangely at odds (at face value, at least) with some of the ideas presented in the Cosmos arc. Not completely, obviously, for both Tolkien and Sagan had a clear love for the beauty and diversity of the world/universe, but had alternate takes where progress vs. tradition is concerned.
I had never thought of things quite the way The Tolkien Professor laid it out, that Tolkien’s outlook would seem to be that all the great knowledge and wisdom had already come and gone, being remembered in tidbits. Carl Sagan clearly differentiated in this way, implying numerous times that if we are to survive as a race, or understand our universe properly, then a new way of thinking is in order.
Though I respect Tolkien’s perspective and find a great deal of merit in it, I’m more on the side of Mr. Sagan, in that I find humanity to be in a sort of species-wide puberty. We’re in a state of flux (to quote treknobabble), and probably have been for a few hundred years, but it now seems to be coming to a head. We are reassessing our old beliefs, trying to find a way to make sense of all the various social doctrines, to see what works and what needs to be left out. I suppose you could relate it to a young adult growing beyond the parent to become an adult, the human race is sorting out the usefulness of our ancestral parents’ ways of thought to become a new and better people.
Religion in particular comes to mind when these thoughts are in the forefront. Tolkien and Sagan, (need I even point it out?) had very different thoughts on the question of God. Where Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and its influence is strongly felt in Middle-Earth, Sagan is rather vague, hesitant to make any personal assessments (as any good scientist), though it would seem that he saw the laws of Nature as a sort of God. That can be a rather touchy subject, however, and my thoughts are strong on it, so I think it’s best to simply leave it a subject for personal consideration.
(Also of interest on the subject, as a side note, is where Tolkien and C.S. Lewis differed on the portrayal of religion in their fiction. Tolkien felt that religion of a specific nature should be left out of works of fantasy, in keeping with his belief of applicability rather than allegory, that a fictional world should fundamentally be apart from our own, the meaning of which can be interpreted and enjoyed by all readers. Lewis, on the other hand, often implied Christian beliefs in his stories, although less so in the Narnia books, The Screwtape Letters and Out Of The Silent Planet come to mind as good examples.)
I’m no expert on these subjects. Merely an observer throwing out thoughts for food… or is it food for thought? I do seem to be ranting a bit aimlessly through these thoughts, so I think I’ll leave it, see what you guys think.
Loving the Arc. Keep up the good job.
There was something in the Modern Warfare segment that irritated me a bit, the implicit statement that the only real reason people would want LAN-only play is to “pirate the game”.
I have friends in the military who play LAN games when they’re off-duty, and because of the restrictions on which ports are open or even availability (people on aircraft carriers have limited access to the internet, and if they do, the latency is usually TERRIBLE, for example) they have huge limitations on whether or not they can play on an internet server.
So you have a big group of guys who are looking to blow off some steam together, and this great game is off-limits to them even if they have legit copies. This is just one example (of many) where LAN play is completely legitimate and has nothing to do with piracy or cheating.
Making sweeping the statements Sean did at the beginning of the 'cast was terribly frustrating to hear, because I feel like a legitimate complaint is being disregarded for unfortunate reasons.
Pleasantly surprised to hear my name mentioned in the podcast. Glad to be one of the many roving reporters. And I guess I should probably read Pride and Prejudice and Zombies now. I have time before the movie comes out, right?
I loved the Tekken segment with Sean. Never thought of the game as having that much strategery involved. I always pretty much played it like Daisy in Spaced, pushing random buttons forcefully and shouting “Kick, kick!” And don’t you love that scene where they intercut the Tim and Daisy fight with a fight from Tekken? “Daisy Steiner wins!”
Still working my way through the LOTR part of the podcast and still fascinated.
Yeah, I was talking back to the podcast at that point myself. Gods forbid someone lives in an area without high bandwidth and wants to play with a couple friends. Or maybe wants to be sure that his multiplayer opportunities don’t hinge on the whims of the developer.
Hopefully, someone comes up with a hack.
I’d consider being angry if MW2 wasn’t, honestly, a console game.
Ideally consoles would have that option as well. It’s the only way to future-proof multiplayer.