So are you saying she didn’t become a believable female character until the beginning of ROTJ… 
I totally get what Poofy was saying there. I love Leia in the evacuation scenes on Hoth in ESB, giving orders and laying out the plans for the pilots and other station crew. Far from being “raging,” she’s confident, calm, and assured, as well as reassuring to her people. When she and Han finally leave the control center, she puts her hand on a crewman’s shoulder and tells him to get to his transport, and you can see true, tender concern coming through for the people she’s leading. I’d say, whatever you thought of her in the first movie, she’d definitely grown by the time this one started.
It’s easy to see why Han fell in love with her.
I thought Chewie did get a medal.
Take a look at this—scroll down to nitpick #12. Very cool site brought up by way of Pike on the Star Wars threads. I think R2D2 deserves one too…
My one nitpick is that when Luke shows up in Leia’s cell he says, “I’m here with Ben Kenobi.” And Leia responds, “Ben Kenobi! Where is he?”
How would she know who “Ben” Kenobi is? Luke wasn’t sure if “Obi-Wan” meant Old Ben, so I doubt Leia would know that “Ben” was Obi-Wan’s new alias…
that always bothered me too, Phil
Maybe she just heard Kenobi and figured the rest?
How come every call I make about Haydon never geting played? 
But that’s my point exactly: being strong and assertive doesn’t have to mean being abrasive and unpleasant to everyone around you, particularly to those who are trying to help you.
I know people already addressed some of this but: How is it stupid to confront Vader when it’s pretty clear that she expects no rescue? I don’t think she was expecting to be rescued, in her interactions prior to Luke’s appearance in the cell block she never said anything to the fact that she expected that.
No, probably not. But as had been discussed previously, she may not have honestly believed that they would harm her. Seeing them blow up a planet probably weakened that resolve somewhat, but still…
How can she be grateful when her “rescuers” are obviously inept and unable to think of a plan and rather get through situations with dumb luck?
How about because they were “rescuers”? Isn’t that enough to be at least a little grateful?
And raging bitca? For shame, Poofy, for shame.
If the hair-buns fit…
She can’t have known that going into the mission. And then we can get into the discussion about ends and means… I do think that, in order to destroy the Empire she would consider the destruction of her homeworld as a justifiable loss, though emotionally it might not register.
It wasn’t a critique of her or what she did or even could know. I was just responding to Solai saying that she was successful.
That ain’t success, by any measure…
What about the whole leaving bit? He didn’t have to come back. He didn’t have to transport Obi-Wan and Luke, he didn’t have to continue - he was persuaded to do so. Being persuaded did not mean that he was maneuvered by a “high-maintenance woman.”
In all fairness, Luke and Obi-Wan are the ones who actually talked him into going to Alderaan in the first place. I don’t mean to imply that she purposely manipulated him, but the result was the same nevertheless.
If Luke had been doing the convincing, would you use a similar label?
I don’t think anyone could dispute that Luke in ANH was high-maintenance. And whiny. So yes. 
I disagree. Relationships of any sort - work, friendship, romantic, familial - all require us to consider our actions and beliefs and challenge us to interact in positive ways (at least I hope so!) with those around us. We necessarily adapt. As a personal example, I was quite content with myself the way I was before I met the man who became my husband (and he was fine with how he was), but over the course of our relationship he has become more open-minded, and I have become more tolerant of people who display characteristics I dislike. I wouldn’t call either of us high-maintenance. But people change over time.
Being around her inexorably drew him into her cause, in part because of his own choices, but mostly because he had no other option. The romance that developed afterwards was necessarily secondary, particularly since she was apparently into her brother. :eek:
Whereas I found Leia to be one of the most likeable characters, and the one that I could identify with most.
I mean no disrespect, but don’t you think that probably has more to do with her being the only major female character in the movie?
She gets things done, she’s loyal, idealistic, and cares deeply about the things that matter to her. She’s effective. She’d make an excellent hero.
And she does, just not here. As I said previously, I found her character much warmer and more accessible in TESB and ROTJ; I only really disliked her in ANH.
But power, at least most of it, was firmly in the hands of the Emperor before. Getting boarded and detained by Vader might have been a clue that she wasn’t immune.
Since the Emperor allowed the Senate to function in some capacity until right before the opening shot, it could be argued that just how much power he actually wielded may not have been clear to most of the Empire.
But I don’t see her begging for mercy or her life anywhere. “Help me, you’re my only hope” I don’t see at all as pleading for rescue, but rather, pleading that he sees her mission through. Leia’s an operative who is ensuring that her information gets into the right hands.
OK, yeah, I was somewhat belaboring the point there.
Considering that our boys didn’t have an escape plan, what would you have her do? Go meekly back into her cell? Get shot? Really?
I’m not saying there was a better option. But it was no more of a plan than that of the boys. She acted impulsively and hoped for the best. How does make her any more of a “leader” than the others?
I could not agree more. If their roles were reversed and Leia and Luke were going to save Han (let’s just keep ourselves in New Hope, here), would people be calling Han high-maintenance if he takes charge of the rescue when it is going badly? No, of course not. He’s the roguish character that we expect to act that way. But Leia challenges the expectations of most viewers in being a woman who takes charge and is competent. And because of that, she is identified as “shrewish,” a “bitca,” and even “high-maintenance.”
I do see what you’re saying, but I’m failing to see the competence (as you said, limited just to ANH). She was reacting without any significant forethought through pretty much every moment that she’s onscreen after programming R2. Taking charge is a great thing if you’ve got a plan. Doing so just to go in a different random direction is not.
Please believe that that was not my intent. But she was, in this movie at least, very much a bitca. She treated friend and foe alike with rancor and disdain, showed no gratitude to those who helped her (a so-called “feminine” trait which the male leads seem to have no problem with expressing, BTW), and took charge when her plan was just as haphazard as the one already in play. Women can be assertive and strong without being overbearing and, well, princessian (is that a word? it should be :rolleyes:). Again, I blame Lucas for shoddy writing of a strong woman more than any innate failing in the character herself.
I doesn’t matter what you call about, as long as you call.
We need our weekly dose of Emily-speak.
You way of talking, more distinctive than Yoda’s, it is.
He was standing up with the others so I guess my memory is faulty or my eyes are. I stand corrected.
R2D2 deserves even a higher medal. He had to put up with all the electronic shocks etc. to give the dumb humans information that they should have known before going into dangerous situations.
beeeep beep beeeeeep R2D2 watch your language.
I would like to make a formal complaint to the big three. No one should ever put Emily in the corner or not play her call. :rolleyes:
(I hope that helps.)
Just a thought: If humans get medals, shouldn’t droids get fleshes?
Shouldn’t that post be in the question thread?
That is a very disturbing image!:eek:
Fixed that for you.
Wouldn’t that imply that Leia would have to be in on the plan…?
IYKWIM? :eek:
On a related note, Vader tells Tarkin about Obi-Wan: “Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone.” What did Vader think Obi-Wan’s plan was???
He wanted to cut off his head and take his Quickening.
There can be only one!
Like Darth Vader’s teddy-bear-center.
In that case, I tend to think of the Force like viewing campfires on a dark hillside at a distance. When there are a lot of them (like when the galaxy was full of Jedi), it’s difficult to differentiate one from another. But when most of the fires have gone out, even the light of a single match can be seen for miles. I’d imagine that two Force-sensitives couldn’t help but be drawn to each other, especially when it seems that they’re the only ones left…
Is Obi-Wan the Final Cylon???
Only mostly dead! Besides, horses don’t have any pockets to go through for loose change.
Luke is whiny, naive, and impetuous.
Han is jaded, cocky, and irresponsible.
Leia is rude, abrasive, and perhaps spoiled.Still, all these weaknesses are only reflections of their strengths. Even some of C3PO’s most annoying traits can be seen as an extension of his just wanting to help, as the Reverend Sean pointed out. All three of our heroes are also loyal, courageous, honorable, spirited, and in possession of a strong sense of right and wrong (sometimes, as in Han’s case, despite himself).
It’s easy to pick on them because people who are driven by a purpose and end up in dramatic situations like they do often have their whole personalities exposed, for better or for worse. Leia, like many commanding men and women before her, can sometimes be pushy and thoughtless; but she’s doing her best the way she knows how, and she gets the job done. The fact that she doesn’t always get it done perfectly (or the way one of us would) just makes her more human.
Same for those other two guys. The play of weaknesses and strengths is what makes them good characters, entertaining to watch and interesting to mull over afterwards. Kinda like some folks on a little show I watch called Battlestar Galactica.
[/soapbox]
Excellent points. Agreed all around.
If it was anyone I would bet on it being R2D2. He has been there from the beginning, manipulating events to serve his (its?) purpose. Inside that little trash can frame beats a heart colder than ice…(no offense intended to the man who originally operated him!)
R2D2: the true harbinger of death.
Take your pick:
