Yup. It was supposed to be a much more involved scene, but Ford was really sick that day. So, necessity being the mother of creativity…
I think Obi Wan and Yoda vanishing upon their death may have just been a way of making clean violence. Just like the light saber cutting without blood I think it was a way to make violence a bit less scary for the younglings.
Yep. Don’t want to pay a crowd of extras for another day. If you believe the story, he improvised the moment and the swordsman went with it.
While the prequels trilogy has gotten a lot of flack here (much of it deservedly so), the one thing I can be thankful for is that they haven’t diminished my love of the original trilogy and in many ways they have enhanced it. The Trinity already discussed the poignant scene when Obi-wan is struck down by Vader, and how that is made all the more moving now that we know the back story.
The other point that was more moving to me on this viewing having just watch Ep III was the scene in Obi-wan’s hovel. The way I see it now the scene starts with Obi-wan waxing poetically with Luke. At that moment Obi-wan is really enjoying himself because he sees, or is projecting, pre-Vader Anikin in Luke. He is being reminded of the young Anikin that he loved as a mentor and brother.
Once Obi-wan sees the R2D2 message his tone changes significantly. Chuck hinted that he gets serious because he knows there is a mission that needs to be accomplished. But I think it is more personal than that. Obi-wan reacts instantly to seeing the projection of Leia. There may be EU stories out there contradicting me on this, but I would bet that he hasn’t seen Leia since she was adopted by the Organas. I think he is reacting so quickly because he sees Padme at that moment, and he is being reminded of her dedication and drive to maintaing and protecting the old Republic.
So to me this scene becomes much more poignant because we now see how the children are actually reflections of his very good friends from the past and how this is much more of a personal as well as professional mission for Obi-wan.
Can I ask a question seriously without sparking a gender war?
Was Audra being deliberately obtuse about the whole “high-maintenance” thing, or do women in general just not process the concept in the same way that men do? I understood exacTly what Sean and Chuck were saying, but Audra just didn’t seem to get it. Looking around the forum where it’s been mentioned elsewhere, it seems like many of the GWC ladies don’t understand either.
I never really thought about it like that before, but Leia is certainly the pinnacle of high-maintenance. She’s a princess, and she acts like one, just like Han says. This is a woman who looks Darth Vader in the, well, breathing mask and insults him. Profusely. Sure, that’s brave and all, but oh so stupid. Like the seven-foot-tall cyborg who chokes guys across the room isn’t dangerous enough, yeah, let’s piss him off too! It’s like someone who starts a bar brawl, knowing her friends will back her up. And then when she gets rescued, she’s basically like “About time” and berates the guys who’ve risked their lives to save her from Vader’s probulator. I’m not questioning her bravery or the rectitude of her position against the Empire, but is a little gratitude too much to expect? How about “thanks for getting me out of there” instead of “get this walking carpet out of my way”? Why can’t a woman like her be strong and independent without being a raging bitca?
hmm… wow, now you mentioned it, that was kind of ungrateful. If she had known Luke and Han for a longer period of time, it could just be they are good friends who likes to joke around. But they really don’t know each other that well at that point.
I would say I completely disagree. I think where the train jumped the rails in this conversation was mixing, “High maintenance” with, “Life changing.”
Let me first address the label of “high maintenance” : I would argue Leia is the exact opposite of high maintenance. She is self sufficient, independant, smart, driven and successful.
The thrust of Chuck and Sean’s argument was that Han was changed by Leia, that she brought complication and steered him down a different path. This is not high maintenance, this is life changing. Any man who enjoys or enjoyed bachelorhood looks to Han as the model of freedom. He does his own thing, he hangs out with his best friend all day…life is good. Along comes a woman who represents something more: responsibility, commitment, a greater good. This is what Han gets caught in. I am hard not adding my own opinion to this observation…just stating the observation as objectively as I can.
As for her reaction upon being rescued, can you blame her? You are prisoner in the heart of the Empire and a couple of joes show up, declare, “We are here to rescue you!” and don’t have a plan? Sometimes being in the cell is safer. Yes, she was scheduled for execution, but she doesn’t know that at that moment. Her barking at Chewbacca is frustration as she is trying to figure out a way out.
All-in-all I would say I understood what Chuck and Sean were saying, but I understand Audra’s confusion.
Being a decidedly low maintenance woman I’m gonna have to say I agree with everyone’s assessment that Leia is high maintenance. Ron your explanation/description makes perfect sense to me and I think it was what Chuck & Sean were aiming for but never got to.
Okay, yeah, Leia is a strong woman and she can get things done. She’s smart and a great leader but she’s horridly high maintenance. If ya’ll have read any of the EU novels you’ll see how true that statement is. Leia goes on to not only lead the New Republic but create a whole new mess of trouble because of her ideas. And poor Han and Luke get dragged along behind her trying to clean up the mess she’s made. And don’t even get me started on the whole Courtship of Leia thing. Holy Craaaaaap! And it just keeps going and going. Now her kids…they’re the exact opposite, Jaina’s the low maintenance one, even though she can’t make up her mind to save her butt. But it’s Jacen that’s the high maintenance one, and whiney pain in the yabos to boot.
So there’s a female thought for ya on the matter. Not that that will vindicate anyone but I had to say it anyway.
Not to mention that she belittles Chewie in a way that could only be described as racist, all within a few minutes of meeting him…
Actually I thought their point was she was “demanding” people around her to make changes for her. granted it’s for a good purpose, but still, she isn’t exactly easy to be with.
that is kind of high maintenance.
I’m not sure I agree with your metaphor. Leia insults Vader, but in reality she has no expectation of being rescued. Her only demand was that Obi-Wan get R2D2 and the secret plans to the Rebel Base, a pretty selfless request. Leia may be the type of person to start a bar fight, but I think she also fully expects to end it on her own terms without backup. I don’t see that as ‘high-maintenance’ because she’s not asking (or demanding) any personal favors from any body.
On the other hand she she certainly is quite headstrong and will take control when she knows she is the most capable. You’ve got to admit that Han and Luke (especially Han) looked pretty incompetent during the initial phases of the rescue. She just took charge when she needed to and wasn’t willing to risk their lives for the sake of a few bruised egos.
Now calling Chewie a “walking carpet” was a bit mean. You can insult the man, but don’t insult his dog…
Um - wasn’t some of this included to be funny? You know, “wise guy/tough broad (as they used to say)” stuff.
And as for her comments to Vader, they were needed in connection with his “you are a liar and a traitor” (or to that effect) lines - perhaps the most angrily spoken and intimidating lines in the whole saga. (What happened to THAT Darth Vader, by the way?)
Successful?[ol]
[li]She’s a princess. She just had to survive to adulthood to get the job.
[/li][li]She got captured during her big mission for the rebellion, and in doing so, doomed her entire homeworld.
[/li][/ol]What about those facts screams “success” to you? 
The thrust
IYKWIM.
of Chuck and Sean’s argument was that Han was changed by Leia, that she brought complication and steered him down a different path. This is not high maintenance, this is life changing. Any man who enjoys or enjoyed bachelorhood looks to Han as the model of freedom. He does his own thing, he hangs out with his best friend all day…life is good. Along comes a woman who represents something more: responsibility, commitment, a greater good. This is what Han gets caught in.
But unlike the bachelor who meets a woman with whom he’ll finally settle down, Leia pretty much maneuvered Han into being part of her rebellion because he had no other choice. It was bad enough that Jabba was after him, but the Empire as well? After escaping from the Death Star, what smuggler or other lowlife would want to be anywhere near him ever again? It’s not really conducive to business to be around someone wanted by both the criminal underworld and the “legitimate” government. After meeting Leia, he had no alternative but to join the rebellion – “the best of limited options”.
I am hard not adding my own opinion to this observation…
IKWYIM, again! I never realized you were so foul-minded, Solai. 
just stating the observation as objectively as I can.
Life changing when you didn’t want to change your life pretty much equals high-maintenance, IMO…
As for her reaction upon being rescued, can you blame her? You are prisoner in the heart of the Empire and a couple of joes show up, declare, “We are here to rescue you!” and don’t have a plan? Sometimes being in the cell is safer. Yes, she was scheduled for execution, but she doesn’t know that at that moment. Her barking at Chewbacca is frustration as she is trying to figure out a way out.
I couldn’t disagree more. She treated them all with the same contempt that she treated Vader and Tarkin. Even if they had no plan, they were trying to help her. She may as well have commented on their “foul stench”. All in all, I find Leia to be very disagreeable through most of this film. 
All-in-all I would say I understood what Chuck and Sean were saying, but I understand Audra’s confusion.
Are you a politician in your day job, by chance? :rolleyes:
Thanks. It’s good to know that the genders have that much in common, at least. 
brilliant XD
Poofy, don’t you know we don’t have wars here? (except the Star kind)
Was Audra being deliberately obtuse about the whole “high-maintenance” thing, or do women in general just not process the concept in the same way that men do?
all the “hammer” talk around here notwithstanding, you’ve hit the nail on the head.
I never really thought about it like that before, but Leia is certainly the pinnacle of high-maintenance. She’s a princess, and she acts like one, just like Han says. This is a woman who looks Darth Vader in the, well, breathing mask and insults him. Profusely. Sure, that’s brave and all, but oh so stupid. Like the seven-foot-tall cyborg who chokes guys across the room isn’t dangerous enough, yeah, let’s piss him off too! It’s like someone who starts a bar brawl, knowing her friends will back her up.
but you also need to consider that, as a senator, she’s been in the political arena, accustomed to dealing with Popetine and his henchman. she’s also enjoyed the relative immunity and respect that being a member of the Imperial Senate has, until recently, brought
And then when she gets rescued,
ineptly
she’s basically like “About time”
I don’t see that
and berates the guys who’ve risked their lives to save her from Vader’s probulator.
yes, they get her out of her cell and into a firefight with no escape route. Han himself doesn’t even believe in the plan, and I don’t think I’m the only one who thinks his “I had everything under control until you led us down here” is a crock of sh*t. he’s no picnic either, ungratefully sarcastic when her quick thinking got them out of the line of fire. and if Luke had just been as quick a thinker as his sibling, called 3PO right away, there’d have been no problem (and, of course, no drama)
I’m not questioning her bravery or the rectitude of her position against the Empire, but is a little gratitude too much to expect? How about “thanks for getting me out of there” instead of “get this walking carpet out of my way”?
okay, I’ll (sort of) give you that. but at the same time, it’s part of what makes her the anti-damsel-in-distress and, I’d argue, far more appealing than the “typical” female character. Solai mentioned some time ago (I’m too lazy to find it right now) that in making Star Wars, GL wanted to “give heroes to a generation that had none” (or something like that). this is never more true than with Leia. she takes charge, she doesn’t take any craaaap, and she calls an inept rescue like she sees it.
Why can’t a woman like her be strong and independent without being a raging bitca?
really? a “raging bitca”? I’ll pretend I didn’t hear that, Poofy 
Haven’t you ever read fairy tales? The princess ALWAYS gets rescued.
Her only demand was that Obi-Wan get R2D2 and the secret plans to the Rebel Base, a pretty selfless request. Leia may be the type of person to start a bar fight, but I think she also fully expects to end it on her own terms without backup. I don’t see that as ‘high-maintenance’ because she’s not asking (or demanding) any personal favors from any body.
Arguably, “help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi; you’re my only hope” could be interpreted as a request for rescue. It could also be said that since the Senate had only recently been dissolved, she may have honestly believed that she, a princess, would not, could not be harmed. She may still have thought of things in terms of politics, rather than the very real fact that all power was now firmly in the hands of the Emperor.
On the other hand she she certainly is quite headstrong and will take control when she knows she is the most capable. You’ve got to admit that Han and Luke (especially Han) looked pretty incompetent during the initial phases of the rescue. She just took charge when she needed to and wasn’t willing to risk their lives for the sake of a few bruised egos.
I can see that, but the garbage chute? Really? How was that a good plan? Remaining in a hallway with Stormtroopers or jumping down a hole that leads to…? A furnace? An airlock that jettisons debris into space? Or even a small compactor room, which even the stupidest Stormtrooper can find on the map? Do you think it’s coincidence that the compacting started not long after they got down there?
Now calling Chewie a “walking carpet” was a bit mean. You can insult the man, but don’t insult his dog…
That’s exacTly what I mean about racism. Chewie’s not human, but he’s still a person. She treats him meanly for an animal, but for a person? Inexcusable.
That may have been the intent, but IMO, she just comes off as rude.
And as for her comments to Vader, they were needed in connection with his “you are a liar and a traitor” (or to that effect) lines - perhaps the most angrily spoken and intimidating lines in the whole saga. (What happened to THAT Darth Vader, by the way?)
He grew up.
Thanks.
I guess. But her “attitude” leads to amusing exchanges with Solo that are not all that much unlike Rosalind Russell’s and Cary Grant’s in The Front Page and Katherine Hepburn’s and Jimmy Stewart’s in The Philadelphia Story.
He grew up.
What a shame.