Age of Sail Geeking

Television, Movies Games and Books Non Science Fiction
#1

Audra, if you want a good fiction novel on the British Navy during the classic age of sail, you’ll be hard pressed to find better than Horatio Hornblower by CS Forester. Especially as it’s been quoted as an influence on both Gene Roddenberry and Shatner when creating Star Trek and also a big influence on Nick Meyer when he was doing Star Trek 2, Wrath of Khan. It was also David Weber’s inspiration for Honour Harrington and in one of his books she’s actually reading a Hornblower story.

They are good swashbuckling stories and reasonable portrayals of how the Navy operated, although the hero is not always the most sympathetic of characters. Start with The Young Hornblower and go from there.

However, I don’t think they particularly support the claimed trope of douche admirals. A number are featured of varying competence and niceness, but I don’t recall any that were particularly douche like and some are great supporters of the hero in fact. I’d say the two biggest douchebags in the series were a Captain and a midshipman.

As someone else has pointed out, in the Napoleonic era the Navy was pretty much a meritocracy and unlike the Army there wasn’t much in the way of people buying their way to power. There had been in earlier times, but after a few embaressing disasters the Admiralty did extensive reforms to make the Navy more professional, which is one of the prime reasons the Royal Navy ruled the world’s oceans in that period.

#2

Have to go with Patrick O’Brian over Forester, but I agree with the rest of your post.

#3

PoB is also well thought of, although personally I struggled with his writting style and gave up after about 3 novels. I think Hornblower is particularly apt here though because Star Trek really was influenced by it.

#4

Not forgetting that Horatio Hornblower was played by Jamie Bamber…

Audra, you gotta check out the “Master & Commander” series of books - the one that came out in the movies with Russell Crowe in it was just one book out of the whole series… and Russell’s character wasn’t douchie in it :cool:

#5

Yeah, like I said I agree with the rest of what you said.

So it comes down to Russell Crowe vs. Jamie Bamber. I smell a poll!

#6

Two of my favoriate books series hands down, are C.S. Forestor’s Haratio Hornblower seriees and Patrick O’Brian’s Aubrey/Maturin series (also called the Master and Commander series.)
The two books series have a place of honor on the top shelf of my book shelf.
(Another good series is the Ramage series by Dudely Pope).

But I have to put the Aubrey Maturin series a good number of notches above Hornblower.
The Aubrey/Maturin books are so very rich in characterization, wit, technical wooden ship details, everything. It really classifies as literature.

Captain Jack Aubrey and Doctor Stephen Maturin are the classic “opposites who become best friends” that is so great in story telling.
They’re relationship is on par with Kirk & Spock, Sherlock Holmes & Dr. Watson and others I can’t think of off hand, but you get the idea.

Of my many geek dimensions, I am definitely an Napoleonic Wars era British Navy geek.

The A&E Horatio Hornblower series (with Lee Adama) was awesome of course.
But if you haven’t seen it, check out the Gregory Peck movie “Captain Horatio Hornblower”. The adventures he gets into is very Star Trek like.
When he’s dealing with the crazy Spanish leader I see Hornblower as Kirk dealing with an enemy Klingon or troublesome planetary dictator.

As to the question of whether how they portray British Admirals in these kinds of stories is real, I say it most definitely is. These novels were based on a lot of real historical logs of British Captains. So the life on board ship and the class structure depicted in these kinds of books are authentic.

There was a definite class structure in the British navy. Yes Admirals moved up from the ranks, but they started off as essentially junior officers (midshipman). And they were totally separate from the common men who bunked “before the mast”.

There douchebags and there were heroes in the Admiralty. And once you were a Post Captain you got on a “The List” and you automatically (sort of) moved up the list as Admirals died off or retired.

EDIT: Oh! Here’s something really cool that Patrick O’brian fans will love:
The Patrick O’Brian Mapping Project. Its a web site that traces the Voyages of Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin. Check it out at http://www.cannonade.net/

#7

Hey, Russell did a damn fine Captain Jack! (OK, he could’ve been blonder.) And it was threeish books that were folded into the movie. Oddly, it worked.

Anyone who is confused by O’Brian’s use of old terminology (and you’re sorta supposed to be, like Stephen) should check out this site.

#8

Dude I gotta disagree, it did not work. That movie had TERRIBLE TERRIBLE pacing issues

#9

Are you nuts? That was an incredible movie!

You are dead to me.

#10

I’m in the middle on this arguement. It was a great movie, and if I had never read the books I would be unreserved in my praise for movie.

Problem is, I knew the books SO well having read them all and THEN listenned to them all the way through on audiobook. As a result, I had a very very clear picture in my mind of who Jack and Stephen were, what they looked like and everything.
And while Russel Crowe did an excellent job, he wasn’t fat enoungh or blonde enough or well, Jack enough, for me to believe him as Jack Aubrey.

The actor who played Dr. Stephen Maturin meanwhile look even less than the character in my mind he was supposed be. The actor was too tall, too good looking and he should have been more unkempt. Gary Oldman would have been perfect for Dr. Maturin. But I don’t know who I would have cast as Capt Aubrey tho I’ve pondered the question many times.

Despite my complaining, I would LOVE it is they made a mini-series covering ALL the books. There’s so much drama, pathos, fun and action and adventure that it would be stunning. Doubt it will ever happen. Period pieces are hard enough to do, but period pieces on water? A nightmare to make.

#11

Hrm. That could be the difference. I saw the movie first, and only then got into the whole O’Brian madness.

And that’s when the geek in you takes over. Scuppers! Cat’s Heads! An inscruitable universe you can master if you apply yourself!

#12

There’s been interviews where Patrick O’Brain has laughed and admitted that were was some times when flat out made some of the terminology up.

The Stephen Maturin character basically serves the similar role as Baltar on the Galactic in the sense that he’s totally ignorant of the nautical life, and by other characters explaining things to him in semi-layman’s terms the reader learns along with him.

#13

Nah you’re nuts. Literally nothing happens in that movie for 90% of it. “we’re on a boat” “Still on a boat” “Oh turtles” “Oh a ship battle where we can’t see nothing” “Oh yep still on a boat”

#14

What you’re saying makes me smile, because that is so true to the book and to the reality of those times. These ships would spend weeks, months just traveling in living the daily ships routine. And there was a sort of zen bliss when life was just the daily routine of the crew going through an ordinary ships day.

That’s contrasted with a moments of incredibly intense action—which would often begin and end very quickly.

I’ve always found it fascinating. These great wooden warships, the training of the crew, the traditions and disciplines of British Naval life—all very intricate and complex—but all of it was designed and evolved to prepare for that one crucial moment when an enemy ship comes into range and it’s time to fight.

#15

That’s cool and all but the trailers suggested something wholly different and that’s interesting to think about but not to watch, imo.

#16

I’m with Pike disagreeing with you, I had no problem with the pacing. Again, haven’t read the books. But I’m familiar with the time period and the area, so it was really fun for me to pick up on little things here and there

#17

Yeah? That would explain a couple things. Do you remember where you saw that?

#18

I think I either read it, or else it was an interview that was included in a audiobook. I’ll check.

There’s whole lexicons that are helpful to understand the lingo in his books:
Like this:

#19

I read the first 4 of O’Brians Aubrey series, and the last book I had to push myself to finish. I much preffered the Horatio Hornblower series, and the books written by Alexander Kent. With that in mind, I though ‘Master and Commander’ to be an excellent movie which did a good job of showing life on a frigate.
Also for those that want a better historical understanding of the British Navy of the time, there is a book called "Life Before the Mast’. Unfortunately, my copy is buried someplace so I can’t find the name of the author.

#20

There was an article I read where some real sailors invited PoB on thier yacht and were surprised at his ignorance of what you can do under sail. It seems his knowledge is a lot less comprehensive than you would think.

Ah, here it is

http://www.latitude38.com/features/O’Brian.htm

Makes for a vey interesting read.

This is very much how I found PoB. I love Hornblower and the age of sail in general, had enjoyed the M&C film and really wanted to devour the Aubrey Maturin books. But I found them very heavy going and three or four in came to the conclusion that I just wasn’t enjoying them. The period style of prose I find awkward, and also a lot of the story is not actually about ships and sailing, but rather long sections on thier social life (and in particular the back and forth over various ladies) which left me pretty cold. shrug

Instead I’ve now moved on the the Sharpe books by Bernard Cornwell, which I’m enjoying greatly. (These are about an Army officer in the Napoleonic wars)

Incidentaly, for anyone who loves the Age of Sail and manages to make thier way to England, I can’t recommend the Historic Shipyards at Portsmouth highly enough. Walking round HMS Victory and soaking up the stories of Nelson is just magical.