#317: John Carter (Live from Meetup)

During the GWC Meetup we took a group of GWCers to see the newly-released John Carter movie, then hit a local bar for beers, snacks, and some podcasting — which you can hear as a segment in this week’s cast. Also, we run down the week in geek, including discussion of the awesome leaked BSG Blood & Chrome sizzler trailer (squee!) and lots more.

NOTE: I’m aware that I say “GWC Podcast #316” at the beginning. The date is correct, and this is indeed #317. I figure it’s not worth another two hours of redering to correct. :slight_smile:

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Enjoying the show, but I have to point out that Woola, the Martian “dog,” is indeed original to the Edgar Rice Burroughs book. I think Disney reduced the number of legs it has, but it’s there in the text, as most things in that movie are. I’m glad to hear all the meet-up folks enjoyed it - it’s a great moviegoing experience and I think it’s such a shame that Disney has practically disowned it. Alas!

I really enjoyed this 'cast (particularly liked the Last Starfighter reference to Grig’s ‘Frontier’ line at the start) and generally agreed with most of what you guys discussed during the meetup segment. I’m glad that you guys had fun watching John Carter, and it’s always interesting to me to listen to other folks discussing what they thought about a film. I think I watch films a bit differently than some people, in that I approach them from a story-based angle; I tend to focus on plot, characterization and coherency more than critical details. Most of what you guys picked up on are things that didn’t occur to me while I was watching it. Normally I’m very detail-oriented and observant and pick up on things that other folks don’t, but it doesn’t seem to be what I focus on in films. That being said, I do think that we sci-fi nerds are good at looking critically at our media and filling in the blanks around things that the producers, writers, and directors don’t pick up on (and yes, we also try to avoid hanging around ‘normal’ people). And let’s be honest, if they had to vet their creations for every potential nitpick before they could release it, then nothing would ever get released at all!

I’ve never read the books myself, and know only a little about the plot from what I’ve looked up online, so I can’t say for sure how much was changed/updated from the book to the film. I think the film did a good job of providing a layered story; while the war between Zodanga and Helium was obviously the main plot device, the way that the ‘Therns’ manipulated events from behind the scenes (providing the ‘main’ enemy that only the hero really knows about) made it much deeper than just a story of two warring city-states. (As far as I know, Matai Shang and his group of shapeshifting teleporters might be based on the White Martians that show up in later books and have telepathic powers, but how much of that is true I can’t be certain.)

I personally don’t think the film was ‘mediocre’ in any sense; but then, I get very emotionally invested in films to an extent that I don’t think most other folks do. All I know is that the film’s various elements all ‘clicked’ for me in a very meaningful way. I thought that everything was well-designed and looked good, I didn’t pick up on any corny or otherwise ‘cringe-worthy’ moments, and it had all of the elements there in balance. It is definitely a film that requires a suspension of disbelief, given what we know about Mars in our modern age, but overall I think the film achieved a reasonable level of realism without making the entire concept seem overly outlandish or silly. It definitely has a distinct ‘science fantasy’ feel to it, but I thought it was at least as good as the first Pirates of the Caribbean film (which, despite being more historically based, is not exactly the most believable concept either!) I loved the characters; they all felt genuine and were well-written and well-acted. Woola had just the right mix of cuteness, lovability, and fierceness, and didn’t seem silly or ‘Jar-Jarian’ (if that’s a word) at all. Lynn Collins is definitely my new favorite actress, and Dejah Thoris my new favorite female character; I got a huge kick out of essentially seeing the original Princess Leia in action, and I just can’t say enough about how huge of a crush I have on her. I thought that the scene where John Carter places himself between Dejah and Sola and an entire raging horde of Green Martians, with the flashbacks of him burying his dead wife and daughter, was the most emotionally compelling in the film.

I’ve been pretty seriously up in arms about this movie even before it was released, mainly due to what I considered to be an unfair amount of bad press from all different angles. I found it unreasonable and disrespectful that people were willing to dismiss and trash this film without even having seen it first. Now, after having seen it twice and loved it, I’m fairly annoyed that the studio is already willing to write it off before it’s even out of the theaters, having no idea how much money it might bring in from rentals and DVD sales. I’ve put quite a bit of energy trying to encourage folks to go and see it, and hold it up as yet another example of why people should never judge something based solely on critics’ reviews.

I don’t think that either the critics or consumers really understood where this film was coming from, frankly. Aside from the limited number of fans living today who have read the original books, I doubt that most folks realized that this was a century-old story; accusing it of being ‘derivative’ and comparing it to other recent films that they’ve already seen when in fact it was the original inspiration for alot of these modern stories. I don’t think that this film suffered from being the original, but it did suffer from being the last one to the party. Every newer story developed as a result of people reading the John Carter books has already been brought to the screen using modern film technology (Star Wars having started things off over thirty years ago), so when the original finally got made, it had to compete against its own creative legacy. (It’s kind of like giving Alexander Graham Bell a modern smartphone;they’re so ubiquitous that no one would really pay attention when he started tweeting about having created the original device, even though he did - very few kids nowadays would even remember what a phone originally looked like!)

(P.S. - Taylor Kitsch is the name of the lead actor that you were looking for - formerly of Friday Night Lights and X-Men Origins: Wolverine. He’s also starring in Battleship, which I will admit looks less stupid than it initially sounded. I would love to send him a letter telling him how much I enjoyed John Carter, as he’s been understandably upset about the film’s difficulties, and I think he could use some encouragement.)

I still havent gotten to watch the movie yet, but enjoyed listening to the discussion on the cast. It is really a shame that the movie isnt doing better in the reviews/boxoffice as I’m sure everyone will stay away from it with a 20’ pole from

[QUOTE=commander515;408739]I personally don’t think the film was ‘mediocre’ in any sense; but then, I get very emotionally invested in films to an extent that I don’t think most other folks do. All I know is that the film’s various elements all ‘clicked’ for me in a very meaningful way.[quote]

Me, neither. I suspect it will grow in people’s estimation once it is out on DVD.

And this was actually the best experience I’ve had watching a movie in 3D since Avatar (which I didn’t enjoy at all, though I allow it was visually a spectacle). Especially considering JOHN CARTER wasn’t filmed in 3D, it was used to very good effect - not to have stuff poking out of the screen but, as in Avatar, to create a truly immersive experience.

I have said it before and I still mean it, several weeks later: I haven’t left the theatre with my sense of wonder so stoked since The Fellowship of the Ring ten years ago, and I think CARTER’s sfx, while less dramatic, were better realized. (Granted, no doubt in large part thanks to Jackson’s trailblazing.) Barsoom feels like a real place to me. I do wish (as I think I said elsewhere) that the scriptwriters had given a few moments to postulating that Barsoom is perhaps some “parallel dimension” Mars – much as they all but said that Carter was teleported in the only way quantum physicists think is possible; i.e, a copy being made (although the original wasn’t destroyed) – that might have done something to foster the suspension of disbelief, since parallel dimensions are a well-established sf trope at this point. But, a minor quibble in my eyes.

I was struck by the idea in the 'cast that more could have or should have been made about this being a century-old story. I am not sure I agree, though I see where the criticism is coming from. I think the story they fashioned from ERB’s source material, while “familiar” for all the reasons discussed, is a solid and fun story, and multi-layered, as Commander515 says above. It’s really good vs. evil on a big scale just like the original Star Wars trilogy was. I think a better title would have helped, but I am not sure I would’ve wanted the filmmakers to apologize in advance, basically, for their story sounding familiar. My middle school drama teacher taught me never to apologize beforehand for a performance, and I think the same holds true here!

Sean, if you romanced Tali in 2 and 3, apparently you get to see a picture of her face. Not something I plan on testing since I see her as Shepard’s kid sister.

I saw John Carter this weekend and really enjoyed it - I think my partner and I (I went alone since ze is out of town) are going to go see it (again, in my case) in the next week or so. That said, I’m also waiting on some friends to see Hunger Games though I’m not sure how much longer I’m willing to wait!

No Spoilers

My upset with the ending of ME3 isn’t so much that it isn’t happy. I actually felt that it was a bit poignant. My problem was the lack of closure. The whole thing was one big story and then it just ends with no real follow through. I also felt the climax of the game was less climactic than the others and slowed down too much without a real climax.

The best way analogy for how I feel about the end of the game is a woman’s perspective when an hour of good sex ends 30-60 seconds too soon and all she feels is frustrated and unsatisfied.

always enjoyable poddage.

haven’t played ME3 yet … but I think this sums up my expectations :slight_smile:

OB

Caveat: I was going to call this in but it turns out that I had much more to say about this than two minutes would allow.

I don’t play Mass Effect (and I doubt I will, given that the play-style and I don’t get along), which I start out with as a way of saying: I don’t have a bone in this fight about the ME3 conclusion. That said, I’ve found people’s reactions to the endings to be quite over-the-top in some situations. Perhaps this is because of my background, but just because there is the illusion of player/reader/viewer participation, that doesn’t mean that ultimate artistic control doesn’t lie with the content creators in the first place. I remember someone on Twitter (sorry to have to “someone” you!) musing as to why they were bothered enough about the ME3 ending to want a revision, yet they hate George Lucas’ changes to Star Wars. Upon further thought I think it rests in something being presented as “done” or “complete” and then being changed, versus something that the consumer does not accept as finished. A chunk of ME3 players do not accept that, within the diegesis, the story is ended; therefore it would be legitimate to demand change, but Star Wars was accepted as complete, so further meddling is “ruining” the original.

Coming from a literary studies background, this all makes me think of Reader Response theory/criticism, which (and forgive this oversimplification) focuses on the aesthetic experience of the reader in relationship to a work above other possible angles for interpretation. While I’m not generally a fan of this kind of work (it’s hard to get data beyond oneself for these kinds of things), what I observe about the debates (is controversy too strong a word?) around ME3 seem to privilege the experience of the reader/player over other considerations. Perhaps this is less problematic when considering a video game than when considering say a novel, but I still have my doubts about making absolute judgements about a piece of art in this way. Lived experience is valid, but as it is said, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Turning to a more literary side of things, you’ve all gotten me thinking about two major works in Latin American literature that I think might be illuminating to the situation at hand. The first is the well-know novel Hopscotch by Argentine author Julio Cortázar. You can look at the Wikipedia link, but in brief, it’s a novel that proposes to be as open as possible, demanding the participation of the reader in the construction of the text itself (Cortázar’s short story “Continuity of Parks” makes a similar argument in, in my opinion, a much clearer and more convincing way). The novel can be read in any way, with or without a specific order - one can go “hopscotching” through the chapters, not read all of them, read them all in page-number order, etc - and thus is a different novel for each of its readers. While the idea is intriguing, I’ve always found the novel itself to be a bit of a failure (stylistically and content-wise I greatly prefer Cortázar’s short story oeuvre). When there are no “rules” governing the way that we as a societal group approach a text, the text itself loses one of the things I think is most important about literature/art: its ability to express (and create!) shared cultural understanding.

Chuck, I’m sure this has come up in your Digital Texts (or was it Digital Narratives?) class, but when we talk about text, we’re talking about narrative - which most of us can understand as story. There’s a Borges story (“The Garden of the Forking Paths”) that really everyone should read for many reasons, among them the fact that Borges is a master writer of short stories, and that this story in particular is an excellent example of the unity of form and content. That said, in this story (the labyrinth within the labyrinth, etc), we read about a fictional novel in which the author has never shut off other possibilities when a choice is made - it’s like a choose your own adventure where you get to choose everything simultaneously while still maintaining a narrative thread. That said, I’ve understood the story (as have many others) as showing this enterprise (via the symbol of the labyrinth and the various representations of circularity in the text) to signify futility. Without taking a stand, or making a choice, so to speak, the world is empty of meaning and worthless. Oh, Borges.

Narrative shapes the way we perceive the world around us which includes the way we relate to others. What worries me about all of the talk about the power of the player/reader/viewer etc. to determine the content of a piece of art is the following: if we all get to make up our own stories we are never exposed to the experiences and opinions of others. We end up living in an echo chamber in which we’re never challenged to grow beyond where we are currently, which I think limits us (as humans) unfairly, and limits art in all of its forms. Collaboration can be productive - but I’ve seen a sense of entitlement (?) expressed in certain communities (particularly surrounding video games, but they are not the only media in which this happens of course) that seems to privilege only one singular view (which is usually white, male, etc which is an entirely different issue to discuss and about which I would write even more! :eek:) while purporting to expand the limits of how we define art. I’d argue that it’s the opposite - it limits it to what the loudest shouters want it to be.

Internet culture and the boom of social networking has created a collaborating society. The world and its stage is literally at your fingertips and this breeds entitlement. Flash mob is a good example of artistic expression via this cultural medium. Art is the Mona Lisa but art is also macaroni, glue, and construction paper. When I think of art, it is not a science. It is an opinion and individual. I may hear a song and dig it. I may hear it weeks or years later and hate it. Has the song changed? No. I have. Art can be critiqued but it should never be mandated.

In the case of ME3, I didn’t understand why a dynamic game would have a static ending. The player should have several possible endings.

I would submit that the plural of anecdote … is Twitter :slight_smile:

OB

Just so you know, “A Princess of Mars” & a whole bunch of Edgar Rice Burroughs’ books are available on an iPhone app called “Books” by Spreadsong Inc

Happy reading!

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Going off on a tangent here, but Lynn Collins’ fans (aka homegirl for Texans) might want to check out her role as “Portia” in the Merchant of Venice ( it’s the one with Al Pacino as “Shylock” and Joseph Fiennes as “Bassanio”)

For the more artsy folk out there: this production was actually filmed in Venice; and the colour schemes and camera work is gorgeous!

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I don’t think that either the critics or consumers really understood where this film was coming from, frankly. Aside from the limited number of fans living today who have read the original books, I doubt that most folks realized that this was a century-old story; accusing it of being ‘derivative’ and comparing it to other recent films that they’ve already seen when in fact it was the original inspiration for alot of these modern stories. I don’t think that this film suffered from being the original, but it did suffer from being the last one to the party. Every newer story developed as a result of people reading the John Carter books has already been brought to the screen using modern film technology (Star Wars having started things off over thirty years ago), so when the original finally got made, it had to compete against its own creative legacy.)

The best sum up I have read was “Star Wars ripped off the stories that ripped of John Carter”.

Vote for your favorite GWC Podcast 317 quote(s). This poll will close on April 19th, 2012 at 04:49 AM.

After watching John Carter, my fiancee and I got A Princess of Mars on our kindle accounts. We are having as much fun talking to each other about the book as we did the movie.

This is the kind of response that gives me hope for a sequel.

If not from Disney then perhaps from another production company… Hell, perhaps even Dreamworks. I am hoping that Book sales, and DVD sales will wake the marketplace up to how much the nerd community enjoyed John Carter. And also to how much some of us simply DON’T CARE what the critics think!

Also: A whole library of Edgar Rice Burroughs’ books are also available on Manybooks.net

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I’m totally behind the times but I was listening to some back episodes of WNYC’s radio program On the Media and there was a segment about the Mass Effect ending on the March 30 show that I thought people here might be interested enough to listen to:
“New Endings”, and a related story, “Personal Video Games”